Quality the theme, rather than quantity

[Rob Sherrill]

Things are a little bit different for Team Illinois after the first day of the Cadet National freestyle tournament.

We're not going into the second day with nearly 30 wrestlers still alive, as was the case in the Junior Greco-Roman meet. In fact, we'll only take about half that number into Thursday's matches.

Only 16 Illinois wrestlers remain alive. But 11 of those 16 are still undefeated.

The big weights wrestled six rounds today. By the time we finish tomorrow night's Cadet competition, we'll know who's wrestling for first, third, fifth and seventh place. Only the finals and medal matches will remain.

Late eliminations included Colton Gladwell (135) and Troy Valdez (140), each with four wins, and Jordan Laster (98), Zach Synon (119), Nick Ruffino (135) and Zach Epker (171), who each won three.

Although he's eliminated from pool competition, Carlos Fuentes will add to Illinois' All-American total. He'll be going for seventh place.

Here's the rundown on the remaining wrestlers:

84 – Carlos Fuentes, 1-2 (going for seventh place)
105 – Mark Duda, 5-1; Sebastian Pique, 5-0
112 – Jered Cortez, 6-0; Barlow McGhee, 5-1
119 – Bryce Brill, 6-0; George Fisher, 4-1
125 – Ben Whitford, 6-0
130 – Zane Richards, 6-0
135 – Angelo Silvestro, 5-0
140 – Brian Murphy, 6-0
152 – Tim Corse, 5-1
171 – Sam Brooks, 5-0; Jack Dechow, 5-0; Joey Dedick, 4-1
189 – Brad Johnson, 4-0
215 – Taylor McGiffen, 4-0

The Junior National freestyle tournament also begins tomorrow morning.

[cap135]

Judging by the Fargo results the last few years, Illinois has some of the best wrestlers in the nation. When is that going to translate into some serious hardware at the college level for Illinois? Now, I know that it's only been the last three years or so that we've been finishing in the top three, so some of these guys haven't graduated yet. What I'm really worried about is our state's inability to hang on to top recruits, and\or our inability to put together a top team.

[Rob Sherrill]

There are a couple of things at work here. First, we have some wrestling programs in transition, and obviously Northwestern, to be competitive, must recruit nationally. Second, it's a historical reality that more Illinois wrestlers who place here have resumes that aren't that great compared to the kids from other states that place here. Look at the 16 kids above that are still alive. Only six of them have been state placewinners and only two have been state champs. Granted, they're still young, but that's a typical distribution from year to year. No other state has kids that come out of nowhere to either place or win four or five matches in the numbers that we do. That's a testament to the great coaching that we have and the commitment of our kids. But a lot of college coaches still look at the number of state tournament medals you have when they're recruiting, and it's hard to accumulate them in Illinois.

[Jaguar]

There are a couple of things at work here. First, we have some wrestling programs in transition, and obviously Northwestern, to be competitive, must recruit nationally. Second, it's a historical reality that more Illinois wrestlers who place here have resumes that aren't that great compared to the kids from other states that place here. Look at the 16 kids above that are still alive. Only six of them have been state placewinners and only two have been state champs. Granted, they're still young, but that's a typical distribution from year to year. No other state has kids that come out of nowhere to either place or win four or five matches in the numbers that we do. That's a testament to the great coaching that we have and the commitment of our kids. But a lot of college coaches still look at the number of state tournament medals you have when they're recruiting, and it's hard to accumulate them in Illinois.
Three classes may help some wrestlers accumulate those medals.

[cap135]

Guys I'm ignorant as to who the coaches are for these teams...can someone enlighten me?

[Greenskin]

As much as some like freestyle and greco...they're still not folkstyle and that is what college coaches are looking for (IMO). College coaches retain their jobs by winning folkstyle matches. While freestyle and greco require tremendous skill they are both still different animals. I'm not surprised to see Illinois have great success in these two styles. Any specialization in either of these two styles is going to result in superior performance against folkstyle wrestlers who "crossover or dabble" in other styles.

I'm not saying that that these styles won't make you a better folkstyle wrestler, but if you really want to be better at folkstyle wrestle folkstyle. Granted this doesn't serve us well on an international stage but the college competion and success that we are seeking is folkstyle. American football may not help us compete in international football...but nobody really cares.

I think the same is true in wrestling. Illinois kids may be more versatile and well rounded but that's not what college coaches need to win and keep their jobs. It's not what brings home high school state titles either and like it or not I think that is a better indicator of college success than national freestyle or greco titles. That being said I want it known that I am proud of the kids and their coaches and am in awe of their success in the international styles on a national level. I'm just addressing a question.

Now go ahead and beat me up.

[wrestling observer]

There is huge crossover in the styles...But, the best in the nation are wrestling international styles this time of year. If u want to improve you have to wrestle the best. imo

[Greenskin]

There is huge crossover in the styles...But, the best in the nation are wrestling international styles this time of year. If u want to improve you have to wrestle the best. imo
No arguement from me on that.

[Jaguar]

As much as some like freestyle and greco...they're still not folkstyle and that is what college coaches are looking for (IMO). College coaches retain their jobs by winning folkstyle matches. While freestyle and greco require tremendous skill they are both still different animals. I'm not surprised to see Illinois have great success in these two styles. Any specialization in either of these two styles is going to result in superior performance against folkstyle wrestlers who "crossover or dabble" in other styles.

I'm not saying that that these styles won't make you a better folkstyle wrestler, but if you really want to be better at folkstyle wrestle folkstyle. Granted this doesn't serve us well on an international stage but the college competion and success that we are seeking is folkstyle. American football may not help us compete in international football...but nobody really cares.

I think the same is true in wrestling. Illinois kids may be more versatile and well rounded but that's not what college coaches need to win and keep their jobs. It's not what brings home high school state titles either and like it or not I think that is a better indicator of college success than national freestyle or greco titles. That being said I want it known that I am proud of the kids and their coaches and am in awe of their success in the international styles on a national level. I'm just addressing a question.

Now go ahead and beat me up.
There is no tournament in the country where more of the best kids are competing. That is why the college coaches go there. It really isn't fair to say that some kids specialize in the international styles. No one on the USA specializes in the international styles in high school (unless your name is Cejudo). Some kids may focus on freestyle and/or Greco in offseason, but that is not the same as specializing. There are many things that translate directly from freestyle and Greco to folkstyle success, and some of those things are better learned wrestling freestyle and Greco. For instance, Greco is all about hand fighting and position. Take away the legs, and you must focus on handfighting and position in a way that you may never have to confront in folkstyle; and thus, Greco will help develop those skills that are important to folsktyle success. Freestyle teaches the need to finish a shot. Take a bad shot or be lazy on the finish, and you pay in freestyle with cheap tilts and throws for back points. To succeed in freestyle, you must take good shots and finish. Freestyle forces a wrestler to focus on those skills in a way that folkstyle does not, and that translates to folkstyle success to all wrestlers who take the time in the offseason to focus on freestyle. College coaches know and appreciate these things. Freestyle and Greco success is an indication of the development of these skills that make a better folkstyle wrestler.

[Rob Sherrill]

Jaguar said it very well. All three styles bring something to the table in terms of making a wrestler well-rounded. Here at Fargo, it's not so much the style as it is wanting to wrestle the best competition. Some kids just like folkstyle and some just want the opportunity to have the time off, and that's fine if that's what they want. But coming here is a measure of whether you really like wrestling or not, want to get better, and want to prove yourself against the best.

I'm stunned at the level of wrestlers Ohio brought here. Horrible...even for the Junior freestyle. In talking to one of their people, he felt like their high school coaches aren't buying into freestyle and Greco. And it's my guess that a lot of them did it themselves. So go figure. It's a good thing we don't seem to have that problem.

I don't know whether three classes, as we have them constructed, are going to result in more accumulations of medals. Look at Barlow McGhee. He didn't even get there. And he just beat an Indiana state champion about half an hour ago. Illinois has a lot of depth.

There are just a lot of wrestling platforms these days, from high school to college to international. The states with the great college traditions aren't going away. And judging from the coaching staff we have, Illinois' domination of this time of year isn't going away, either. How the two will intersect going forward will be interesting to watch.

[Jaguar]

Jaguar said it very well. All three styles bring something to the table in terms of making a wrestler well-rounded. Here at Fargo, it's not so much the style as it is wanting to wrestle the best competition. Some kids just like folkstyle and some just want the opportunity to have the time off, and that's fine if that's what they want. But coming here is a measure of whether you really like wrestling or not, want to get better, and want to prove yourself against the best.

I'm stunned at the level of wrestlers Ohio brought here. Horrible...even for the Junior freestyle. In talking to one of their people, he felt like their high school coaches aren't buying into freestyle and Greco. And it's my guess that a lot of them did it themselves. So go figure. It's a good thing we don't seem to have that problem.

I don't know whether three classes, as we have them constructed, are going to result in more accumulations of medals. Look at Barlow McGhee. He didn't even get there. And he just beat an Indiana state champion about half an hour ago. Illinois has a lot of depth.

There are just a lot of wrestling platforms these days, from high school to college to international. The states with the great college traditions aren't going away. And judging from the coaching staff we have, Illinois' domination of this time of year isn't going away, either. How the two will intersect going forward will be interesting to watch.
Although Illinois is a "freestyle and Greco state"; we also have folkstyle tournaments every weekend through the end of June that are available for the wrestlers who don't like or aren't willing to venture into the international styles. In fact, it was not that many years ago that Wisconsin and Illinois wrestlers would come to Illinois for folkstyle competition in the offseason because we had so many tournanents. We still do, but most of the best in the state are wrestling freestyle and Greco this time of year.

[Greenskin]

There is no tournament in the country where more of the best kids are competing. That is why the college coaches go there. It really isn't fair to say that some kids specialize in the international styles. No one on the USA specializes in the international styles in high school (unless your name is Cejudo). Some kids may focus on freestyle and/or Greco in offseason, but that is not the same as specializing. There are many things that translate directly from freestyle and Greco to folkstyle success, and some of those things are better learned wrestling freestyle and Greco. For instance, Greco is all about hand fighting and position. Take away the legs, and you must focus on handfighting and position in a way that you may never have to confront in folkstyle; and thus, Greco will help develop those skills that are important to folsktyle success. Freestyle teaches the need to finish a shot. Take a bad shot or be lazy on the finish, and you pay in freestyle with cheap tilts and throws for back points. To succeed in freestyle, you must take good shots and finish. Freestyle forces a wrestler to focus on those skills in a way that folkstyle does not, and that translates to folkstyle success to all wrestlers who take the time in the offseason to focus on freestyle. College coaches know and appreciate these things. Freestyle and Greco success is an indication of the development of these skills that make a better folkstyle wrestler.
I don't believe that I said we have kids who specialize in these styles and I didn't mean to infer that. What I am saying is that there are kids who spend a lot more time on these styles than others. It is not unreasonable to expect that those kids will do better in these tournaments than those who don't. Put them together in a folkstyle situation and you may get totally different results. For everything that these styles add to a wrestlers development, there is no bottom wrestling whatsoeverand few of the traditional pinning techniques that we see in folkstyle. These are two huge areas that are for the most part ignored in favor of better handfighting skills as well as some of the others that you mentioned.

Once again, I'm just trying to answer a question that was posed earlier. I enjoy the fact that Illinois dominates in the international styles. Even though we have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of I wish we were as dominant in the folkstyle and that was reflected in collegiate success..

[Grandpa Knows]

Greenskin, Jag, and Mr. Sherrell,
Thanks discussing this, we have been debating this same topic within our family. Your well educated input has been very informative and helpful.

[Jaguar]

I don't believe that I said we have kids who specialize in these styles and I didn't mean to infer that. What I am saying is that there are kids who spend a lot more time on these styles than others. It is not unreasonable to expect that those kids will do better in these tournaments than those who don't. Put them together in a folkstyle situation and you may get totally different results. For everything that these styles add to a wrestlers development, there is no bottom wrestling whatsoeverand few of the traditional pinning techniques that we see in folkstyle. These are two huge areas that are for the most part ignored in favor of better handfighting skills as well as some of the others that you mentioned.

Once again, I'm just trying to answer a question that was posed earlier. I enjoy the fact that Illinois dominates in the international styles. Even though we have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of I wish we were as dominant in the folkstyle and that was reflected in collegiate success..
I do agree with you on that.

I will add that there are probably a number of reasons why our high school success has not translated into the same kind of college success. One of them is the emphasis that became prevelant in our state on the neutral position, while at the same time minimizing attention to the top and bottom position (other than escapes) - the takedown and let 'em up style of wrestling. If you go to the east coast, in particular, those guys are tough on top and work for pins. We have not been like that as a whole in Illinois. Maybe that is why we like freestyle and Greco so much.

[Greenskin]

I do agree with you on that.

I will add that there are probably a number of reasons why our high school success has not translated into the same kind of college success. One of them is the emphasis that became prevelant in our state on the neutral position, while at the same time minimizing attention to the top and bottom position (other than escapes) - the takedown and let 'em up style of wrestling. If you go to the east coast, in particular, those guys are tough on top and work for pins. We have not been like that as a whole in Illinois. Maybe that is why we like freestyle and Greco so much.
I can verify that through personal experience. Those guys out East can flat out wrestle down on the mat. We do spend a lot more time on our feet in Illinois and I spend more time teaching takedown technique than top and bottom wrestling combined. Freestyle has a great emphasis on wrestling on your feet, so I would agree that it is a logical transition for Illinois kids. As for Greco, I don't know if it is still true but the Russians used to put their best athletes in Greco.

[Greenskin]

Greenskin, Jag, and Mr. Sherrell,
Thanks discussing this, we have been debating this same topic within our family. Your well educated input has been very informative and helpful.
It is amazing what can be both shared and learned when people can discuss something sensibly and respect each other's opinions without getting bent out of shape. My thanks to Jag and Mr. Sherill as well.