Team Tournament

[guillotine]

Have I got this right? Given the 'unofficial' results, is this the way the brackets turn out for the Team Tournament?

A few of these teams have already met. How did they turn out during the regular season? Any changes or reason to think they'll be different now?

Predictions?


Dakota vs Harvard

Praire Central vs St. Joseph Ogden

Vandalia vs Herrin

Montini vs Wilmington

Rock Falls vs Rock Island (Alleman)

Lansing (Illiana Christian) vs Sandwich

Litchfield vs Petersburg (PORTA)

Stanford (Olympia) vs Aledo

[dk57]

wow great minds think alike, i just put this in the other thread.

[guillotine]

but after the first match, they follow this bracket...right?

[guillotine]

I believe Montini has wrestled Wilmington and won 45-24 this year.

Any others?

[dk57]

yup, you are correct sir.


I'll take:

Elite 8
Dakota vs. PC
Vandalia vs. Montini
Alleman vs. Sandwich
PORTA vs. Stanford

Final 4
Dakota vs. Montini
Sandwich vs. Stanford

3rd: Dakota d. Stanford
1st: Montini d. Sandwich (where have i seen this before?)

if Dakota does take it all, i think that's great.
don't know enough match ups to make a call, so i'll go with history.

[guillotine]

Montini seems stronger at the lower weights, Dakota at the upper.

Maybe the match is won by what's left...

[guillotine]

did Montini and Dakota both wrestle Oregon?

[The Crippler]

Dakota wrestled at oregon, but not montini

[wildcatfever05]

Once again, thanks to the ridiculous IHSA pairing system and refusal to actually do something about their inequitable, flawed systems, one of the top 4 teams in the state will not make it out of Sectionals. The only 2 teams in the "Elite Eight" that Wilmington has not beat or placed higher than at a tournament are Montini and Dakota. This is the 3rd year in a row that the 'Cats have had a better team than most of the "Elite Eight" teams who end up getting pounded by Montini or Sandwich.:mad:

[nwilfan]

I don't like the system either so what is the solution? It's not that easy to fix.

For one, when I was in high school the top 2 scoring teams in the regional faced off in a dual to determine the regional championship. Think about that this year if Stillman would have beaten out Dakota at regionals like some thought they would. Dakota beat Stillman head to head by 26 points. If Stillman had won the regional Dakota would still have the shot to advance and deservedly so considering the dual team score. Personally I liked it better when they had that but probably adds another week on to the schedule unless they wrestle regional and sectional dual titles in the same week which also is the team state duals.

Wilmington is not the only team that probably feels wronged. All year by this site the top four teams are Montini, Dakota, Stillman, and Harvard. Stillman (#3) is done and Dakota (#2) and Harvard (#4)face each other to get to state, obviously eliminating another. Which means only 2 of the top 4 teams will be at state and they will meet in the semifinals not the finals meaning theoretically the second best team in the state will get 3rd.

The whole re-seeding arguement can't really be used because there are few common opponents for many of the teams. You can't just go by tournaments because teams with a few stand outs can rack up a lot of points but would not stand a chance in the dual format.

So what other options would be out there? Again I don't like the IHSA format necessarily but it's not the easiest to fix and it is a shame that there are teams every year getting slighted by it. What would people suggest?

[D357]

In my area i think litchfield beat Porta by 9 points.

[Willy]

Since team rankings are as subjective as individual rankings, at least they are a start if seeding could be done. With the bulk of the top 20 teams from the north or central part of state, regionals MIGHT be organized a little better than they are now. So instead of having both Stillman Valley and Dakota at the same regional, split them up. Maybe regional assignments could come out by January 1 or so when many teams have had a fair number of duals/tournaments. Either use Illinois Best Weekly or Matmen or some other system to split up the top 16 teams. Every regional winner qualifies for dual team state. Start with 8 duals and then seed it. #1 plays #16, etc. Get to 8 teams and wrestle for the top 4 spots. Then semis and finals. Could be done in one day like many quads or tournaments. This would have a better chance of getting the best 4 teams on the trophy stand than it is now. They seed basketball before regionals (Sorry I had to mention the BB sport, Guys!) It would be tough to set up but how fair is it to continually have the likes of Dakota, Stillman Valley, Oregon, Alleman, etc. beat each other up in regionals and team sectionals. Same with Coal City, Wilmington, Sandwich, MONTINI, etc. How fair is that? Then you have teams like Peotone and Manteno feed into a cupcake regional every year. Send a Wilmington or Coal City to that regional and bust it up. Would there be some travelling involved? Yes. But if you want the best teams at state, travel will have to be part of the equation. I don't know if this would even work but it's an attempt to fix this annual inequity.

Willy

[wildcatfever05]

Seed the Regional Champions 1-16 based on: 1)Dual records, 2) Head-to-head results and 3) Tournament placings.
Add one more week to the season to allow for having the Sectional Tournaments on a Friday or Saturday to accomodate travel times. Many of the best teams travel all over the state, or out of state to attend the better tournaments anyway. This system is even worse than the quadrant system used for football.

[nwilfan]

I like Willy's idea. It would be similar to all the other sports basketball, volleyball, softball, and baseball where there are "sub-sectional" aka regionals and the top four each go to a regional site then the rest are put in by location. Also similar to football quadrants. It would give IHSA the "consistency among sports" arguement if nothing else.

It would still be hard to justify rankings to do seedings as some teams get ranked by their reputation and could still leave you several lopsided pairings as you go through.

I realize this isn't football but travel is supposedly the reason for IHSA doing away with the 1-32 seedings even though it resulted in the best football state championship match up to date. It proves that IHSA doesn't care about "true" state placings, see the blasting Coal City took from Montini in the state championship this year (football) or many of the lopsided victories at state duals.

[flashy_classy_Ahost]

But the IHSA would never go to something like that. Your gonna see the same thing for the next 10 years probably. Its a shame that it works out this way. The IHSA wouldn't go to an outside source like IBW or my rankings. They would say it isn't fair or something along those lines. My idea would consist of keeping it the way it was...only draw a line in the middle of the state. Each Northern team gets to wrestle a southern team (winners of the regionals) via blind draw. Winners advance to state keeping the same format. If there isn't enough of each to face each other, then you break it down to the teams Dual record and match em up by that. I know, not the smartest of ideas, but I had to throw my 2 cents in.

[wildcatfever05]

I like Willy's idea. It would be similar to all the other sports basketball, volleyball, softball, and baseball where there are "sub-sectional" aka regionals and the top four each go to a regional site then the rest are put in by location. Also similar to football quadrants. It would give IHSA the "consistency among sports" arguement if nothing else.

It would still be hard to justify rankings to do seedings as some teams get ranked by their reputation and could still leave you several lopsided pairings as you go through.

I realize this isn't football but travel is supposedly the reason for IHSA doing away with the 1-32 seedings even though it resulted in the best football state championship match up to date. It proves that IHSA doesn't care about "true" state placings, see the blasting Coal City took from Montini in the state championship this year (football) or many of the lopsided victories at state duals.The last part is just another "Can of Worms" the IHSA refuses to address. The Private schools who aggresively recruit and build All-Star Teams in any sport should not be in the same classes with the Public schools of similiar size who cannot. The Private schools were 5 for 5 this year in football; they can take all their "work harder" B.S. and flush that down with the rest of the excriment!! You can't tell me that ANY private school recruited all-star team works any harder than ANY of the better, home-grown, school district restricted small town programs. In FACT, the small town, home-grown boys have to work harder just to be able to compete with the imported, recruited talent that private schools have created from geographic and population bases substantially larger than any of the schools they compete against. In my opinion, if the IHSA does not finally take a stand and follow up on some of the recomendations from their "Task Force", they are nothing but spineless cowards who need to resign and allow people to take over who will not be intimidated by the private school's threats and money!!

[nwilfan]

I agree it's a whole other can of worms and by no means care to use this board to argue private vs. public. I know what it is like, my hometown is 1,100 people and I live in a town even smaller now. I was just trying to illustrate that when IHSA did go 1-32 the state championships were more competitive, now they are very often lopsided whether is private v. public, public vs. public or private vs. private. They eliminated because of travel times/expenses so I can't see them doing it for wrestling.

[nonnie]

The last part is just another "Can of Worms" the IHSA refuses to address. The Private schools who aggresively recruit and build All-Star Teams in any sport should not be in the same classes with the Public schools of similiar size who cannot. The Private schools were 5 for 5 this year in football; they can take all their "work harder" B.S. and flush that down with the rest of the excriment!! You can't tell me that ANY private school recruited all-star team works any harder than ANY of the better, home-grown, school district restricted small town programs. In FACT, the small town, home-grown boys have to work harder just to be able to compete with the imported, recruited talent that private schools have created from geographic and population bases substantially larger than any of the schools they compete against. In my opinion, if the IHSA does not finally take a stand and follow up on some of the recomendations from their "Task Force", they are nothing but spineless cowards who need to resign and allow people to take over who will not be intimidated by the private school's threats and money!!
Crying towels are most likely found in the losers locker room!!!!!

All of the wrestlers both Public & Private work VERY hard to achieve their goals...You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to take away the recognition ALL of the wrestlers deserve...What example are you setting for these wrestlers?

My philosophy is when life gives you LEMONS make LEMONADE!!!!!!!

GO WRESTLERS!!!!!!!:)

[wildcatfever05]

Crying towels are most likely found in the losers locker room!!!!!

All of the wrestlers both Public & Private work VERY hard to achieve their goals...You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to take away the recognition ALL of the wrestlers deserve...What example are you setting for these wrestlers?

My philosophy is when life gives you LEMONS make LEMONADE!!!!!!!

GO WRESTLERS!!!!!!!:)EXACTLY where in that post do you see anything remotely resembling anything you are referring to?? Nowhere in that post does it say that the private school recruited, imported all-star teams don't work hard. What it does say is that they have an unfair advantage due to their ability to recruit; so did the Private-Public Task Force. HOWEVER, because of the threats and intimidation and whining and crying by the Private Schools; who know it and are afraid to lose it, the IHSA is doing what most cowards do-NOTHING. The TEAMS who deserve the recognition more are the ones who are getting screwed by the IHSA and the private school all-star teams. What example are the private schools setting for all the student athletes across the state by their threats to file law suits, pull out and all the rest of the intimidation threats?? Maybe you should teach them how to make lemonade and send them your crying towels!!!

[jrbu]

The TEAMS who deserve the recognition more are the ones who are getting screwed by the IHSA and the private school all-star teams. I hope the Private Schools do pull out of the IHSA and then they won't have to deal with any of the IHSA rules. Within 4 years the Public School athletes would become obsolete. The IHSA "champ" would be a joke and without recruiting restrictions the Catholics could go out and get big sponsorships they would get stronger and stronger. You would never see a Public kid get any college money, because the colleges wouldn't even scout the IHSA. Just the Private schools. More and more private schools would open the IHSA would weaken to the point of no return in athletics. So before you push all of the "Private Schools" out of the IHSA think about what you would be losing and think about what their responce would be. Do you think if you kick them out of the IHSA that they will just close? By the way, I teach and coach in a CPS school. You don't hear me whining that St. Rita steals all the Twisters from me!! I admire them for what they have built and I hope to someday compete at that level, but I don't despise! By the way, you think private schools are the only ones with advantages? You think that Sandburg doesn't have an advantage over my team? And I'm not talking about on the mat but in the budget, feeder programs, space for practice!!! The list goes on and on. To be the best you must beat the best, even if it is an "All Star team."
Remember Seperate is NOT equal!!!

[thisguy]

i agree jrbu. money makes the world go round


haha jr bu
as in coach bu... hmmmm

[belch]

The argument that public schools would basically fold if the private schools pulled out is ignorant at best. In class A , the private schools would have to travel a long way every meet if they only wrestled other private schools. In Chicago Class AA it may be different, but in Class A if the private schools pulled out they would be the ones who would fold within 4 years.

[wildcatfever05]

I hope the Private Schools do pull out of the IHSA and then they won't have to deal with any of the IHSA rules. Within 4 years the Public School athletes would become obsolete. The IHSA "champ" would be a joke and without recruiting restrictions the Catholics could go out and get big sponsorships they would get stronger and stronger. You would never see a Public kid get any college money, because the colleges wouldn't even scout the IHSA. Just the Private schools. More and more private schools would open the IHSA would weaken to the point of no return in athletics. So before you push all of the "Private Schools" out of the IHSA think about what you would be losing and think about what their responce would be. Do you think if you kick them out of the IHSA that they will just close?
Remember Seperate is NOT equal!!!First, if you teach in a CPS school, then you should be able to read and comprehend what was written: "The Private schools who aggresively recruit and build All-Star Teams in any sport should not be in the same classes with the Public schools of similiar size who cannot.", does not say anything about kicking the private schools out of the IHSA.
The Private-Public Task Force had some very good suggestions and possible solutions to bring some equity back into the system. It is the private schools who are fighting ANY changes that will take away their unfair advantages in team sports. I find it very ironic that they are always crying poor, but as soon as they hear that they may have to start competing on a more level playing field; they are going to file law suits, they will fight it no matter what the cost, they will pull out of the IHSA and all of the rest of the intimidation threats they have made. The whole idea of high school athletics is to give as much opportunity, to as many kids as possible; to learn, compete and succeed. If you, or the private schools think for one second that them pulling their minority of schools and kids out of the IHSA will have the "Chicken Little" effect that you and they are preaching- you are crazy! The sky will not fall, there will not be any fire and brimstone, the walls of the Illinois public high schools WILL NOT come tumbling down!! They will end up losing more in the long run because the smaller private schools are going to be hurt the worst. Your arguments hold even less water than the private schools'. By the way, Hell will freeze over before your CPS school will EVER be able to compete with St. Rita in the flawed system we have now.
Remember- 30 mile radius = MILLIONS of kids to choose from to fabricate an all-star team, public schools only get what they have in their district and make the best of it; that is even LESS equal!!

[thisguy]

private school dont say, hey come to our school and we will buy you a new car, sorry it doesnt work that way. some parents like mine sent me to a private school for catholic education, i didnt want to go there but i had too, but after 2 years i loved the school the coachs the teachers. we have this system and we cant change it so why should we all complain about it over and over again. because there is no way we could change your mind about private vs public

[wildcatfever05]

"we have this system and we cant change it so why should we all complain about it over and over again."
You are right. We should all just roll over and play dead.........
The British had all the power in the 1700's and a great system working in the American Colonies, we should have all had your mentality. The Germans also had a great system and all the power when they took over almost all of Europe in the 1940's, maybe we should have stopped complaining and not tried to change that either? Do I need to go on?

[nonnie]

EXACTLY where in that post do you see anything remotely resembling anything you are referring to?? Nowhere in that post does it say that the private school recruited, imported all-star teams don't work hard. What it does say is that they have an unfair advantage due to their ability to recruit; so did the Private-Public Task Force. HOWEVER, because of the threats and intimidation and whining and crying by the Private Schools; who know it and are afraid to lose it, the IHSA is doing what most cowards do-NOTHING. The TEAMS who deserve the recognition more are the ones who are getting screwed by the IHSA and the private school all-star teams. What example are the private schools setting for all the student athletes across the state by their threats to file law suits, pull out and all the rest of the intimidation threats?? Maybe you should teach them how to make lemonade and send them your crying towels!!!

also known as REAL WORLD...

Perhaps I did miscomprehend your message!

As you stated "they can take all their "work harder" B.S. and flush that down with the rest of the excrement!!!"...
that certainly appears that you are bemoaning the fact that you are unable to glean the same talent that these PRIVATE schools are able to get. As far as the "Private School recruited all-star team", I have ONLY one word to say to you... Sandburg. I understand that they are NOT a small town, however if you determine their limitations based upon school district boundaries, their "pool" that they can choose from would equal a town approximately the size of, for example, Wilmington. Of course, this is not taking into account the transfers enabled due to the No Child Left Behind Act.
In FACT, referring to your statement "Exactly where in that post do you see anything remotely resembling anything you are referring to??" What EXACTLY I was referencing when I said "All of the wrestlers both Public and Private work VERY hard to achieve their goals." was your very biased remark that "the small-town, home-grown boys have to work harder just to be able to compete with the imported, recruited talent that private schools have created...."
Now, I do agree that SOME of the wrestlers have to work harder just to compete, however, the same holds true whether it is a Public or Private school wrestler. The boys who find themselves to be in the same weight classes and brackets, whether regular season or State Series, as talent such as Mke Poeta, class of 2004, Kyle Jahn, class of 2004, Chuck Pieritz of Alleman, Tyler Clark of Orion, Mike Ryan of Bishop Mc Namara, Matt Schuck of Burlington Central or Dan Haeflinger of Harvard to name just a few; I am sure would attest to the FACT that they have to work harder than someone who has enjoyed not only success in the state of Illinois but also nationally; (Not to take anything away from the wrestlers that have achieved so much.) Regardless of their status as a Public or Private school wrestler.
Let me clarify this for you a little further:

WRESTLERS have to work HARD PERIOD. Some harder than others; it doesn't matter if they are from Public or Private schools. It is ludicrous for you to make a remark that holds a negative connotation against the wrestlers' training practices. Depending upon weight class, it doesn't matter WHO you wrestle FOR, it matters WHO you are wrestling AGAINST.
ALL TEAMS HAVE ALL-STARS!!!
such as the boys named above from PUBLIC schools, both large and small.
I believe the statement about who works harder is moot. It all depends upon the individual wrestler and his/her desire to achieve his/her personal goals. As I have heard many times from many wrestlers...
Winners train, losers complain.:p
I am sure there are many coaches that WISH they had a whole team full of wrestlers that have the "winner mentality", however the reality is people who display negative behaviors tend to undermine the self-confidence of the wrestler who is wavering, regardless of whether they wrestle for the "private school imported, recruited all-star team" or the "better home-grown, school district restricted small town program".
As far as the Public/Private task force, their job is to make recommendations based upon what is better for the whole IHSA wrestling program, not just an individual team. It is ALWAYS easier to demean and insult what does NOT conform to an individual agenda as opposed to support what necessarily may not benefit all teams, but just the majority of them regardless of classification. In my opinion, name calling and finger pointing tend to be the behavior that is exhibited by "spineless cowards". It is most assuredly easier to make derogatory statements about how YOU think things are handled behind the scenes when YOU lack the courage to step up and take responsibility to TRY to better things for the ENTIRE wrestling community.
In my experience, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
I am also miscomprehending your statement "TEAMS who deserve recognition more are the ones who are getting "screwed" by the IHSA and the Private School all-star teams."
Who EXACTLY is "screwing the teams who deserve recognition more" the IHSA or the Private School all-star teams?
How can you blame the boys who only want to wrestle, the same as all the other wrestlers for "screwing" the teams who deserve recognition more and HOW do you determine WHO deserves more recognition? Shouldn't recognition be awarded to whomever works for it regardless of who's team they are on?
Your lack of true and valid information is obvious based upon your remarks about the private school practices of threats and intimidation. The information you have gleaned comes from the rumor mill and not fact. My advice to you is do your research prior to making any more "factual" statements.
Once again, sometimes decisions are made based upon the betterment of the whole and not the individual. Regardless of personal feelings, the wrestling community's whole goal should be to support and encourage our programs, NOT to cry foul when we don't agree with others' actions.
My observance of the private school entity is that they stress education, cultural values and appreciation of the skills involved in achieving one's goals. This has been reflected many times by the private school wrestlers who have lost matches and have held their heads high while shaking not only their opponent's hand, but also their opponent's coaches' hands and walked calmly off the mat.


I'll possibly see you at the State Championships in Champaign, if I do, I will be the one making lemonade while you are the one in your locker room with your supply of crying towels.

See ya!:cool:

[jrbu]

First, if you teach in a CPS school, then you should be able to read and comprehend what was written. . . By the way, Hell will freeze over before your CPS school will EVER be able to compete with St. Rita in the flawed system we have now.

Ouch, thanks for the subtle jab at my reading comprehension. I’m not going to retaliate but I just wonder if you read my first sentence: “I hope the Private Schools do pull out of the IHSA and then they won't have to deal with any of the IHSA rules”? Anyway, I respect your difference of opinion, it’s just I think I have a more imaginative way of thinking about what might happen, just imagine:

The IHSA decides to segregate the private schools into their own division so as to keep the “playing field even.” The privates will not like it and the legitimacy of the “state champ” would be even further questioned (football there are what, 6, wrestling 2) So the private schools would begin to look for corporate sponsorship, not school by school, but as a league. Take all the private schools in the state and make them into one league. Get money from sponsors like: Nike, Asics, etc. (The Private School State meet sponsored by Asics) Use that money to first improve the schools that are in need of an upgrade, like St. Francis in Chicago and other smaller private schools. In a year or two the money can be used to set up endowments and other revenue generating machines. That in turn can pay for almost all of the “tuition” of the athletes. You might say: “why would a corporation want to sponsor a high school league,” because they will then have a monopoly on the best high school talent from Illinois. Do you think it was a coincidence that Lebron James’ high school team got an endorsement deal in his sophomore year?? The colleges would love it too, because the private schools would be doing most of their recruiting for them, they would not have to travel all over Illinois, just to the private school meets and games.

Now without any interference from the IHSA imagine being at your son/daughters Freshman games and seeing private school scouts there, not to scout for the playoffs but to see which kids they missed in grade school and bring them over. By the fourth year the publics would have no decent seniors there.

You said that the smaller privates would have to travel too far to compete, and once again you’re not thinking outside the box. If the privates have no restrictions they would not go to ANY IHSA events. It would be all Clash, Beast of the East, and so on. How would the Dvorok look without Rita, Carmel, Montini, Marist, Fenwick, Providence? The privates could even have their own national tourney, another revenue generating idea. Do you think Blair Academy in NJ gets real caught up in the local dual meets and other state functions? No, they are too busy competing in the national events that make them great.

In football they could have their own playoffs and the winner could play the winner of the California Private League. Imagine De La Salle (Cali) v. Mt. Carmel or St. Rita or Providence, held at Soldier Field. I think that the stands would be more crowded then what I saw down at U of I this year for some of the games. This would be another revenue generator for the league.

We live in a capitalist country and as long as we do the privates are going to have an advantage over the public for the mere fact that their money is not regulated by the government. If they leave the IHSA then they will be even freer to stretch those boundaries.

And lastly the temperature must have dropped a few degrees in Hell cause last week at regionals TWO of my wrestlers beat kids from St. Rita in their OWN HOUSE and this is only my second year. I know that I have a long road and many years before I will compete with them on a team level, so should i give up, not try? Those two with 3 and two years wrestling experience respectively found a way to compete against the All star team. Now I have taken on a small group of grade schools kids, free of charge, that want to learn to wrestle and I’m not worried about getting them good and losing them to a recruiting machine because I will make them feel apart of a family. The same way the privates do. Maybe your kids have a defeatist attitude toward the private schools, but mine respect what they have and want to take it themselves. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best, even if they have “advantages.”

Or maybe we can just leave well enough alone and all work to improve.

[nonnie]

Ouch, thanks for the subtle jab at my reading comprehension. I’m not going to retaliate but I just wonder if you read my first sentence: “I hope the Private Schools do pull out of the IHSA and then they won't have to deal with any of the IHSA rules”?Anyway, I respect your difference of opinion, it’s just I think I have a more imaginative way of thinking about what might happen, just imagine:

The IHSA decides to segregate the private schools into their own division so as to keep the “playing field even.” The privates will not like it and the legitimacy of the “state champ” would be even further questioned (football there are what, 6, wrestling 2) So the private schools would begin to look for corporate sponsorship, not school by school, but as a league. Take all the private schools in the state and make them into one league. Get money from sponsors like: Nike, Asics, etc. (The Private School State meet sponsored by Asics) Use that money to first improve the schools that are in need of an upgrade, like St. Francis in Chicago and other smaller private schools. In a year or two the money can be used to set up endowments and other revenue generating machines. That in turn can pay for almost all of the “tuition” of the athletes. You might say: “why would a corporation want to sponsor a high school league,” because they will then have a monopoly on the best high school talent from Illinois. Do you think it was a coincidence that Lebron James’ high school team got an endorsement deal in his sophomore year?? The colleges would love it too, because the private schools would be doing most of their recruiting for them, they would not have to travel all over Illinois, just to the private school meets and games.

Now without any interference from the IHSA imagine being at your son/daughters Freshman games and seeing private school scouts there, not to scout for the playoffs but to see which kids they missed in grade school and bring them over. By the fourth year the publics would have no decent seniors there.

You said that the smaller privates would have to travel too far to compete, and once again you’re not thinking outside the box. If the privates have no restrictions they would not go to ANY IHSA events. It would be all Clash, Beast of the East, and so on. How would the Dvorok look without Rita, Carmel, Montini, Marist, Fenwick, Providence? The privates could even have their own national tourney, another revenue generating idea. Do you think BlairAcademy in NJ gets real caught up in the local dual meets and other state functions? No, they are too busy competing in the national events that make them great.

In football they could have their own playoffs and the winner could play the winner of the California Private League. Imagine De La Salle (Cali) v. Mt.Carmel or St. Rita or Providence, held at Soldier Field. I think that the stands would be more crowded then what I saw down at U of I this year for some of the games. This would be another revenue generator for the league.

We live in a capitalist country and as long as we do the privates are going to have an advantage over the public for the mere fact that their money is not regulated by the government. If they leave the IHSA then they will be even freer to stretch those boundaries.

And lastly the temperature must have dropped a few degrees in Hell cause last week at regionals TWO of my wrestlers beat kids from St. Rita in their OWN HOUSE and this is only my second year. I know that I have a long road and many years before I will compete with them on a team level, so should i give up, not try? Those two with 3 and two years wrestling experience respectively found a way to compete against the All star team. Now I have taken on a small group of grade schools kids, free of charge, that want to learn to wrestle and I’m not worried about getting them good and losing them to a recruiting machine because I will make them feel apart of a family. The same way the privates do. Maybe your kids have a defeatist attitude toward the private schools, but mine respect what they have and want to take it themselves. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best, even if they have “advantages.”

Or maybe we can just leave well enough alone and all work to improve.




Think just like winners!!!!


Bravo to you !!!

Congratulations to your boys coming out of regionals and best of luck for sectionals!

:)

[nonnie]

"we have this system and we cant change it so why should we all complain about it over and over again."
You are right. We should all just roll over and play dead.........
The British had all the power in the 1700's and a great system working in the American Colonies, we should have all had your mentality. The Germans also had a great system and all the power when they took over almost all of Europe in the 1940's, maybe we should have stopped complaining and not tried to change that either? Do I need to go on?
If I recall my History lessons correctly, during the periods you reference, we did not just complain. We took action and prevailed! That is what winners do, not cry whine and complain......Congratulations!! You have now earned your own personal monogrammed crying towel!;)

[thisguy]

thank you nonnie and jr bu, greatly appreciated

[central_IL_fan]

It seems to me that Wilmington is over obsessed with getting 3rd or 4th.....So what if you guys dont make it to state under the current system, there is nothing wrong with celebrating your regional titles. I think that its great that teams south of I-80 have a shot of getting the medal stand, the south is where wrestling needs this kind of publicity the most. We know you guys have beat several of the potential elite 8 teams, congratulations on that, but you have to let this argument go. You have a great team, a great program, be happy with that.

[Downstate Dad]

In my opinion "nonnie" is obfuscating and "jubu" is just dreaming. Both engage in more than a little bit of ad hominem, too.

The argument relating to "all-star teams" has to do with the assembling of a TEAM composed of hand-picked talent. In team competition, there is a competitive advantage. Rather than deal with that issue "nonnie" points out that the individual wrestlers should not be penalized and that many schools, bith public and private have "all stars." It seems likely that these talented kids would do well in the individual state series regardless whether they went to public or private schools. And it is true that individual athletes in public schools do become all-state, so they can be called "all stars," but the point of the discussion is that there is an unusual concentration of these athletes in private schools, which has an effect on the TEAM comeptition. You shoul deal with that issue rather than changing the subject to individual results.

Then "jubu" thinks that if the private schools separated, that their league would garner more attention than the state tournament. First, that's silly, because if these kids could not earn a state-wide championship, the "all stars" would stop going to these schools in disproportionate numbers. The parents who send their kids to private schools for athletic reasons do so because they want their kid to do well on a state-wide basis. Second, "jubu" thinks that asics and nike would pour all kinds of money into these private leagues. Why would they spend their money on the league, when they can just get a bigger bang for the buck by letting the league develop or fail by itself, then continue to spend it on the individual stars? These stars are going to be in sports somewhere, whether a private league succeeds or fails, so there is no benefit in supporting the league. They can just continue to look for the talent. "Jubu" also think the college coaches would merely scout the private leagues. He apparently does not realize that there are limitations on how often college personnel can scout a single prospect. They can't go see the same teams over and over again, so they'll still get out and see a variety of prospects. Besides, based on what I've said before, many of "all stars" wouldn't be in that league anyway.

The ad hominem is the self-serving way they decide who thinks like a winner and who thinks like a loser. Rather than deal with the issues they descend into name-calling.

The funny thing is that I don't live in an area where this is an issue. I attended Catholic schools for 12 years, yet I can see the validity of the concerns that some are raising.

[wildcatfever05]

[QUOTE=nonnie]If I recall my History lessons correctly, during the periods you reference, we did not just complain. We took action and prevailed! That is what winners do, not cry whine and complain......
That is exactly what I and several others have done for years to try and get the inequities in the present systems changed; writing letters, sending emails, making phone calls, getting the TRUTH out on the Internet, spending alot of time and energy taking every action possible to prevail!!:D As usual though, the egocentric, elitist people like you call that "whining and crying"....
You NEED to check your facts; call the IHSA, go to your library and look up the articles in the newspapers that quote the statements made and position taken by the private schools when they heard what the Task Force had recommended. You also are completely clueless as to what the problem and the argument is really about; it has nothing to do with the individual wrestlers- most of what you say about all wrestlers having to work hard and compete against the best is true. The problem is the recruiting and fabricating of TEAMS of all-stars. I will also be in Champaign supporting and cheering on my son and the rest of his home-grown, hardworking teammates. You can keep your monogramed towels to clean up the excriment you keep spewing because the problem/s are almost non-existent in Champaign; the INDIVIDUAL Championships is NOT where the problem/s are!!!!:p Your pseudo-intelectual ramblings and pontifications CLEARLY PROVE you have no idea what you are talking about. The Task Force did their homework, spoke to all sides and looked at several possible solutions; they have made some very good, sound recomendations!! When you have educated yourself and put in 1/100th the time and effort-"action" to comprehend what the problems are , then get something done about it, then maybe you will understand the frustration and anger created when the private schools elected to ignore the Task Force findings and started making all their threats about what they would do if the IHSA implemented any of the recomendations.:mad:

[jrbu]

I guess we can just agree to disagree. But don't ever again tell me that my wrestlers won't be able to compete against St. Rita. We'll be just fine.
And stop insulting people. At no point did I attack you or belittle your point. This concludes my pseudo intellectual rambling.

[wildcatfever05]

"And lastly the temperature must have dropped a few degrees in Hell cause last week at regionals TWO of my wrestlers beat kids from St. Rita in their OWN HOUSE and this is only my second year. " Congratulations to those two. The facts still are and remain that your TEAM has 14 individuals; Hell is still frozen over...... The rest of your theories are about corporate sponsorships and college recruiting, well, I will not say what I think of that except that if there was any way that the private schools could have found to make that happen, they would already have done it!!

[nonnie]

Kudos to you and the others who have put forth their efforts and time for what they believe in.:)
I do feel confident in stating that when a solution is recommended to IHSA that resolves the recruiting issues and is fair and just to ALL, (both Public and Private) then and only then, will the system be changed. I respect your right to your opinions however I don’t agree with them….That is what is so great about America..Each of us irregardless of the social or economic inequities that exist, is still entitled to our individual opinions.
As for being “clueless” as to what the problem and the argument is really about..I am well aware that parents of some athletes of the smaller schools feel the same way you do. Our system is not perfect and may not be to your advantage for recruitment and fabrication of all-star teams., but our system is definitely not responsible for the negative images you are conveying. :( You are responsible for imparting a negative image of your town and school due to your attacks and insults to other wrestling fans. :) Let’s acknowledge the positive. I happen to be acquainted with a young man who attended Wilmington High School and was awarded a college scholarship for wrestling. I am sure he is not the exception…..in fact several of Wilmington High Schools wrestlers have done very well and thru their hard work, guidance and perseverance of their coaching staff have received wrestling scholarships to college. So maybe you should try to present your opinions in a more positive light. Some more of my pseudo- intellectual babbling….you can catch more flies with honey……
You want users of the message boards to believe that you have the best interest of the
entire wrestling program as your focus………….Yet……….
Your statement regarding “that the problem has nothing to do with the individual wrestler ” is indicative of your limited focus. Individual wrestlers comprise the Team. Your attack on “jrbu” and his wrestlers supports my statement of your limitations. Despite your comments of congratulations to 2 of his Team’s wrestlers, you have still attacked the other 12 wrestlers of “jrbu’s” team.Your comment was “Hell still being frozen over” I believe messages on this board should support and instill confidence in all the wrestlers, not to attack or undermine their accomplishments.

Information available thru IHSA.org does address boundary lines but nothing specifically about any (wrestling related) lawsuits being filed. I know your issues are boundaries, so as to inhibit recruitment of "All-Stars" for Private Schools. Personally, the parents of Private School students that I am acquainted with; chose to make the sacrifices they make to send their child to Private School based on the quality of education not the ranking of the sport teams! .SO who is pontificating?:D

So, now back to your real issue…you want CERTAIN private schools to be in a
different class . WHY?:confused:

If Wilmington was winning against CERTAIN private schools, would there even be an issue?:rolleyes:


I am donating my personalized monogrammed crying towel to you so you can clean up your own excrement that you post on this board! :p


Good day and as “jrbu” said…..I agree to disagree….and lets leave it at that!:D


:) GOOD LUCK TO ALL THE WRESTLERS AT SECTIONALS !!!! :)

[Downstate Dad]

When someone says, "Because of structural inequities in American society, blacks cannot compete on an equal basis with whites," they do not insult black Americans. They are making a statement about the effect or racism in American society. As a whole, blacks are at a disadvantage.

If someone says that structural inequities in IHSA wrestling prevent the CPS schools from competing with CCL schools, that does not insult to CPS or any individual wrestler. As a whole, public school wrestlers are at a disadvantage.

It's okay for everyone to hold different opinions and views, and we can all live and let live. But when one says an opponent is harming children by expressing his opinion, it does not further open dialog.

[wildcatfever05]

As I said, "As usual though, the egocentric, elitist people like you call that "whining and crying"...." Your affiliation and allegiance to Montini, as well as your stereotypical private school mentality and single-minded, self-serving distortion of reality is Laughable.;)
I can most definitely, " agree to disagree".
HOWEVER:D , since I am not affiliated with any school in any official capacity; I am able, without fear of repercussions, to speak freely and continue to PUSH for reform in our pathetically inequitable system.
"Information available thru IHSA.org does address boundary lines but nothing specifically about any (wrestling related) lawsuits being filed." ----"You NEED to check your facts; call the IHSA, go to your library and look up the articles in the newspapers that quote the statements made and position taken by the private schools when they heard what the Task Force had recommended."

"Your statement regarding “that the problem has nothing to do with the individual wrestler ” is indicative of your limited focus. Individual wrestlers comprise the Team."
CLEARLY indicates that you still are unable, or unwilling to acknowledge or understand WHAT the problem is: you continue to try and make this a personal issue and change the focus to your personal dislike and disapproval of me and everything that I post.
FACT: the disparity and inequity created when private schools fabricate all-star teams by aggressively recruiting the best athletes from population bases MILLIONS of times larger than any single town or school district they compete against, creates a grossly disproportionate advantage in TEAM SPORTS . No matter how often you try to change or distort the subject, no matter how hard you try to keep making this personal: "So, now back to your real issue…you want CERTAIN private schools to be in a different class . WHY?:confused:
If Wilmington was winning against CERTAIN private schools, would there even be an issue?:rolleyes:"---it is NOT about any one or two schools, private or public. SO, you can stop trying to put words in my mouth and distorting and twisting my statements. I have a problem with and continue to "attack" a flawed, inequitable system and the administrators who refuse to do anything about it: the MAJORITY has spoken, there are several problems with the current system, IT'S PAST TIME TO CHANGE IT!!
Will everyone be happy? NO! Are the best interests of the MAJORITY of Illinois High School students being properly served and made the most important issue? NO! Are the private schools doing everything they can to hinder or stop ANY changes that may, or may not adversely affect them, but will better serve the MAJORITY? YES!!
You do not like me and continue to personally attack me because I do not sugar coat the problems: I say what I mean and mean what I say. This has been going on for years: I have "been there-done that", tried using reason, tried being nice and diplomatic, have tried to let the facts and figures speak for themselves. My patience has run out: the last of my children will be out of high school before anything will ever be done about this, but it does'nt matter, the fight WILL GO ON!

So, in closing, good luck to Vince and the rest of the Broncos in the Individual Finals this weekend--it's really not a personal issue, so you can still keep your "personalized monogrammed crying towel".:D :p

[wrestl'nmom]

Hi,

This is Vince Hannon's mom. Are you directing this toward my son? I can tell you honestly that I don't know who it is that you are talking to on these messages. It sounds to me like you have a hold of quite a pistol.

I appreciate the tidings of good luck and wish your son Tony the best too.

Good luck to all of the boys who are going to State.

Renee Hannon

[wildcatfever05]

Hi,

This is Vince Hannon's mom. Are you directing this toward my son? I can tell you honestly that I don't know who it is that you are talking to on these messages. It sounds to me like you have a hold of quite a pistol.

I appreciate the tidings of good luck and wish your son Tony the best too.

Good luck to all of the boys who are going to State.

Renee Hannon
Nothing in here is directed towards your, or anyone else's son. Although I would be proud to say he was my son, Tony is not one of my three sons. I will be more than happy to pass along the message to Tony, my son and the rest of the 'Cats. See ya in Champaign!