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  #21  
Old 03-20-2017
ChiefIllini1 ChiefIllini1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Quickstick View Post
IMO Imar has never been a technical master.
Oh, seven-foot-tall sweet baby Jesus! What are you saying? They are all hosses out there. Do you think that the other guys don't do situps? That they don't lift weights? His underhook series is fantastic, and there are a lot of little things that people don't catch. For example, in the Finals match two years ago against Brian Realbuto (who is also a great technician), IMAR did this:


That's IMAR in on a single. Realbuto is about to grab an ankle.


See Realbuto reaching for that ankle? IMAR knows what to do.


That's a sweet sitout to avoid the stalemate ankle-grab.


And the finish to a masterful takedown.

Quote:
i keep hearing guys say well Imar beat so and so the 2 previous matches ....
Because numbers matter. If you think that a 1-2 record is as good as a 2-1 record. Go for it. But you're wrong.

Quote:
its a atmosphere at PSU that is a advantage when they match up against a equally elite wrestler the mindset at psu usually is the difference....
IMAR is 5-2 against PSU's golden Children of the Corn. Did this PSU "mindset" benefit Bo Nickal when he was beaten last year in the finals? (The answer is "no," he should have won.). Did it help Nolf last year? Molinaro got 5th in the world but only one national championship. How did Delgado end up owning Megaludis? Nico took a redshirt year to avoid him! Was that the PSU "mindset" or was that running away? Why has Guilibon sucked? He was a four-time Pennsylvania state champ.

I noticed that you used the qualifier "usually" in your statement, but the reality is "usually not." PSU has done really well on the recruiting trail, and they had a great tournament this year, though, so congratulations to them.

GO ILLINI!!!
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2017
Blonjuan44's Avatar
Blonjuan44 Blonjuan44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefIllini1 View Post
Oh you poor sweet Dear! Somebody disagreed with you on a message board!

Again, Nolf was an even bigger hammer last year. He got the same percentage amount of bonus (subtracting the IMAR losses) in about 10 more matches. In other words he had only two non-IMAR matches that weren't bonus in both years, but he wrestled about 10 more matches last year.

As for people ready to create THE JOSEPH ERA, keep in mind:

1. He won his quarterfinal and semifinal matches by a combined 2 points (11-9).

2. He's done the thing once, whereas IMAR has done it twice.

3. On top of the two one-point wins in the quarterfinal and the semifinal, he lost four times on the year.

4. Two of those losses were to IMAR by a combined six points.

5. I think the best thing to happen to the PSU room was their wrestlers had fewer matches than just about everyone else. (This is a hypothesis, though, and not fact. There needs to be more evidence, if it can be proved at all.). If you think about It, the only wrestler who looked "ragged" out there on Saturday night was Hall, and he had more matches on the season than anyone else in their lineup.

6. Let's turn the question around and ask it this way: Could 2017 Joseph beat 2017 Nolf?

GO ILLINI!!!
I think there is something to idea of having less matches keeping it fresh for the tourney - possibly similar to the reason underclassmen doing well. There has to be a sweet spot in all sport of getting tuned up vs too much.

I think IMAR would have won from the 5 v 5 tie, he was the aggressor the whole time. Not that means a win, just better potential to win.

I went to see Joe Williams wrestle vs Purdue at Purdue Cal. The purdue wrestler hit a beautiful throw and put him right on his back similar to IMAR, Williams threw him off him about 3 feet & it wasn't momentum & just went to another level and ripped the guy up.

Was it IMAR that got thrown in the last seconds in High School ? - I remember a guy going for 4 in Cal and a guy hit a last second throw...if so, that is tough twice...
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There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...
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  #23  
Old 03-20-2017
Nelson*0.5's Avatar
Nelson*0.5 Nelson*0.5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstick View Post
IMO Imar has never been a technical master .i look at imar as a skilled wrestler with a athletic gift that is rare
if you have the season he had and lost only in the NCAA finals its safe to say he is confident and mentally focused
he has always taken time off in matches just to conserve energy and then explode and almost always is successful
it was not a master gameplan by the PSU staff many guys attack him and he makes them pay
i keep hearing guys say well Imar beat so and so the 2 previous matches or he is mentally struggling
the answer to that is nobody cares about yesterdays results and personal issues are part of mental toughness
I.E JDEN COX was struggling and the MIZZ helped him overcome it so i hope the illini family if Imar is struggling are able to help him through it if thats the case

Its the overall mind set at PSU and what they preach there are no excuses as well as second guessing coaches decisions ....its a atmosphere at PSU that is a advantage when they match up against a equally elite wrestler the mindset at psu usually is the difference
every PSU wrestler preaches fun ,team,and hard work ,every interview and that is why their champs ....if you took those 5 champs and scattered them across the country you would be lucky to see two national champs out of 5

what Cael has done at PSU is exactly why anyone who considers wrestling a individual sport is wrong
every wrestler at psu is better the next match they have and that sums it up
i think imar is a unbelievable wrestler but his room for improvement is small as a senior compared to these freshman
these freshman are going to get so much better in the upcoming seasons and that is scary
Where do you get this stuff from Quickstick. If you spent half the time reading and trying to comprehend as you do blathering you might be able to muster up a semi intelligent thought. Who said anything about a master gameplan by the PSU staff. My suggestion was that they made a very simple observation from watching IMAR's previous matches in the tournament. Are you disputing that IMAR was visibly wrestling flat footed at best and on his heels at worst in each of his previous matches? Did you see that as something that was working well for him. There is no gamelan that needs to be put in place to take advantage of that. Simple aggressive wrestling and awareness of such fundamental flaws is far from a master gamelan. Speaking of gameplans, do you think that IMAR wrestling back on his heels was part of his? Was that technique he employed in the 90+ dominating victories he has stacked up over the past 3 years including solid wins over the likes of Dylan Ness, James Green, Logan Massa and yes Vincenzo Joseph? Or, was that perhaps a flaw that reared itself unfortunately in this particular tournament that hence resulted in a very different outcome than every other collegiate tournament that he has competed in over the past 3 years. You see, I understand you have a chub over Cael and the rest of the Penn State coaching staff. I get that you eat up all these superficial interviews that talk about how happy everybody is in Happy Valley and how much fun they're all having. It's a warm and fuzzy story....I know. But there are facts and real wrestling behind the feel good stories. Yes, that does require you to actually pay attention to the matches and at least attempt to have some intelligent analysis about what you see. But we all know is easier to regurgitate meaningless clichťs and shallow observations. You're going to have to try a little harder on your next rebuttal.
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2017
goodwrestling goodwrestling is offline
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First, if you watch Imarís interviews from the weekend youíll see him say that he was looking out for the big move. Thatís where his apparent apprehension comes in. Ironic thatís what does him in at the end.

Secondly, Imar does seem to have some anxiety issues and was affected by the big match. In his interview he mentions not looking at this as any another match which I think was a mistake. Anxiety causes wrestlers to get themselves tired much quicker than normal. Not to mention the power moves he uses which wear someone down too. His conditioning is as good as anyone in the country.

Lastly, he isnít as powerful up at 165. Remember at the beginning of this season he wrestled a tournament at 145. Itís harder to score up a weight and people have scouted him and know what to look for. Joseph had a response to the underhooks.

Penn State atmosphere had nothing to do with it. The practice partners all the guys in the Penn State room have is a very real factor. Martinez is probably not pushed by anyone in the Illini room anymore but the Penn State guys have several Olympians to push them.

Joseph always had a very real possibility of being in the finals. Heíd been wrestling well and was a third seed. He didnít surprise anyone. He did win a lot of close matches at NCAAís though.

Iím not sold on Nolf being better than Martinez. 157 had cleared out this year and 165 was a much tougher weight. I donít think Joseph is better either. He was just better in that match.
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2017
ChiefIllini1 ChiefIllini1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blonjuan44 View Post
I think there is something to idea of having less matches keeping it fresh for the tourney - possibly similar to the reason underclassmen doing well. There has to be a sweet spot in all sport of getting tuned up vs too much.

I think IMAR would have won from the 5 v 5 tie, he was the aggressor the whole time. Not that means a win, just better potential to win.

I went to see Joe Williams wrestle vs Purdue at Purdue Cal. The purdue wrestler hit a beautiful throw and put him right on his back similar to IMAR, Williams threw him off him about 3 feet & it wasn't momentum & just went to another level and ripped the guy up.

Was it IMAR that got thrown in the last seconds in High School ? - I remember a guy going for 4 in Cal and a guy hit a last second throw...if so, that is tough twice...
It's a tough call regarding the perfect number of matches. You can say that people still stand to get injured in practice, and that's a pretty good argument. But, there's a difference between facing a drilling partner and somebody in a live match who is happy to twist your knee just a little bit further.

I was hoping to see Zane and Zac get a couple of matches off, but some wrestlers don't want that, and I would guess that they were looking to reach that 100-win milestone, which is a pretty awesome accomplishment. I don't know what the answer is. Selfishly, I hope they all wrestle 50 matches per year so I can be entertained!

I'm think that IMAR was 3-1-1-1 in high school, so you may be thinking of somebody else. I just checked it, and, yeah, he finished third as a freshman.

Joe Williams was a hoss. (Probably still is).

GO ILLINI!!!
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  #26  
Old 03-21-2017
Quickstick Quickstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwrestling View Post
First, if you watch Imarís interviews from the weekend youíll see him say that he was looking out for the big move. Thatís where his apparent apprehension comes in. Ironic thatís what does him in at the end.

Secondly, Imar does seem to have some anxiety issues and was affected by the big match. In his interview he mentions not looking at this as any another match which I think was a mistake. Anxiety causes wrestlers to get themselves tired much quicker than normal. Not to mention the power moves he uses which wear someone down too. His conditioning is as good as anyone in the country.

Lastly, he isnít as powerful up at 165. Remember at the beginning of this season he wrestled a tournament at 145. Itís harder to score up a weight and people have scouted him and know what to look for. Joseph had a response to the underhooks.

Penn State atmosphere had nothing to do with it. The practice partners all the guys in the Penn State room have is a very real factor. Martinez is probably not pushed by anyone in the Illini room anymore but the Penn State guys have several Olympians to push them.

Joseph always had a very real possibility of being in the finals. Heíd been wrestling well and was a third seed. He didnít surprise anyone. He did win a lot of close matches at NCAAís though.

Iím not sold on Nolf being better than Martinez. 157 had cleared out this year and 165 was a much tougher weight. I donít think Joseph is better either. He was just better in that match.
thats wat i was trying to say i never was trying to insult other programs or say imar is not worthy or a bad wrestler

this is typical Nelson behavior he takes a post i make which i admit can be confusing as a opportunity to appear like the self proclaimed wizard of wrestling and the moral standard of posting even tho he made the cornfed psu wrestlers comment and called Nico out as ducking DELGADO and brings names not even in the topic to hide the fact that the only educated opinion he can muster up is one he can google and copy to a post and claim it

it is obvious PSU has it going on right now and he can only say congrats to them for this year and credit their success on the recruiting trail

im sorry Nelson its been 8years of recruiting and reloading and if you think because i think that wrestlers practicing in that room everyday and the day to day overall mood of fun and success is not a part of why they are so consistent you obviously have much bigger issues than comprehending my incoherent posts

so please NELSON i know in your mind you have labled yourself as the self proclaimed wizard of wrestling ....but i am wrong enough on my own and post out of emotions at times which i regret and are incorrect

but a guy like yourself who takes others comments and twists them around to make himself look like he is someone who would never act in that manner is even worse

its no secret that my posts are sometimes difficult to comprehend but its no secret anymore that you rarely post opinions instead you fabricate,twist others words around and insult in order to make your point
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2017
Nelson*0.5's Avatar
Nelson*0.5 Nelson*0.5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstick View Post
thats wat i was trying to say i never was trying to insult other programs or say imar is not worthy or a bad wrestler

this is typical Nelson behavior he takes a post i make which i admit can be confusing as a opportunity to appear like the self proclaimed wizard of wrestling and the moral standard of posting even tho he made the cornfed psu wrestlers comment and called Nico out as ducking DELGADO and brings names not even in the topic to hide the fact that the only educated opinion he can muster up is one he can google and copy to a post and claim it

it is obvious PSU has it going on right now and he can only say congrats to them for this year and credit their success on the recruiting trail

im sorry Nelson its been 8years of recruiting and reloading and if you think because i think that wrestlers practicing in that room everyday and the day to day overall mood of fun and success is not a part of why they are so consistent you obviously have much bigger issues than comprehending my incoherent posts

so please NELSON i know in your mind you have labled yourself as the self proclaimed wizard of wrestling ....but i am wrong enough on my own and post out of emotions at times which i regret and are incorrect

but a guy like yourself who takes others comments and twists them around to make himself look like he is someone who would never act in that manner is even worse

its no secret that my posts are sometimes difficult to comprehend but its no secret anymore that you rarely post opinions instead you fabricate,twist others words around and insult in order to make your point
LOL
One again QS.....huge reading comprehension issues. Please point out to me anywhere I said anything I said about Delgado or Megaludis or Penn State recruiting or cornfed wrestlers. For the record, I love posting opinions, observations, analysis and commentary....I also find shaky rebuttals, unsubstantiated arguments, factual inaccuracies, misquotes, hyperbole and contradictions to be very annoying. That's what make your posts an easy target. A little more thought behind your posts and perhaps a proofread or two before hitting submit would be such a welcome addition to your postings.
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2017
ChiefIllini1 ChiefIllini1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson*0.5 View Post
LOL
One again QS.....huge reading comprehension issues. Please point out to me anywhere I said anything I said about Delgado or Megaludis or Penn State recruiting or cornfed wrestlers. For the record, I love posting opinions, observations, analysis and commentary....I also find shaky rebuttals, unsubstantiated arguments, factual inaccuracies, misquotes, hyperbole and contradictions to be very annoying. That's what make your posts an easy target. A little more thought behind your posts and perhaps a proofread or two before hitting submit would be such a welcome addition to your postings.
I think Quick got us mixed up in a few places!

We're all just arguing our positions.

It's like none of us can wait for wrestling to start again. Offseasons suck! And we don't have an Olympics this year to distract us.

GO ILLINI!!!
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  #29  
Old 03-23-2017
ChiefIllini1 ChiefIllini1 is offline
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WrestleStat's final rankings for 165 came out, and they look a little something like this:

Quote:
Rank Wrestler Record Win% Bonus% Points

#1 Martinez, Isaiah 31-1 96.88% 68.75% 2018.89
#2 Jordan, Isaac 28-6 82.35% 41.18% 1929.11
#3 Massa, Logan 32-3 91.43% 62.86% 1811.52
#4 Joseph, Vincenzo 22-4 84.62% 42.31% 1747.51
#5 Walsh, Chad 33-6 84.62% 58.97% 1675.52
#6 Rogers, Chandler 25-8 75.76% 48.48% 1668.66

I got rid of some of the extraneous stuff like conference and school year. I would change one thing in the list, and that would be to put Isaac Jordan below Joseph. I would admit that I have no clue how Wrestlestat comes up with their "points" (the far right column), so if you know, please share your knowledge. I did scan the site and found their "About" and "FAQ" sections, but they don't have anything to say about the secret formula.

GO ILLINI!!!
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  #30  
Old 03-25-2017
dadudaman4 dadudaman4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefIllini1 View Post
WrestleStat's final rankings for 165 came out, and they look a little something like this:




I got rid of some of the extraneous stuff like conference and school year. I would change one thing in the list, and that would be to put Isaac Jordan below Joseph. I would admit that I have no clue how Wrestlestat comes up with their "points" (the far right column), so if you know, please share your knowledge. I did scan the site and found their "About" and "FAQ" sections, but they don't have anything to say about the secret formula.

GO ILLINI!!!
I think next year's top 3 at 165 will be, in this order: Martinez, Massa and Joseph. I-Mar will come back with a vengeance and will capture his 3rd title, with only 2 losses in his career (not including his red shirt year).
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