Is Montini at it again? - Page 8

LOCK Jaw · #71 04-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lockness

Great post, please, keep them coming. You are singlehandedly winning the crowd for Montini with intelligent posts like that.

Get a grip on life

You may be surprised to know that GM is actually a rhode scholar and just types belligerantly for the fun of it, he makes his points though...

IHSAWrestleFan · #72 04-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by matador

IHSAWrestleFan - I strenuously object!

You honestly believe that good wrestlers coming into high school would be no better/worse off at one high school vs. another??? That is flat out wrong! Like everything in life, there are good options, bad options, and everything in between. The same is true of high school sports and wrestling in particular. There are good coaches and bad coaches, there are strong schedules and weak schedules, there are strong traditions and no traditions, there are strong practice rooms and weak practice rooms, there are dedicated coaches to the off season and non-dedicated coaches, there are high expectations and low expectations. The list goes on and on. If schools and coaches did not matter, why do a lot of the same schools continue to succeed year in and year out (Sandburg, Glenbard North, Montini, Providence, St. Rita, Libertyville, Grant, Wheaton North, Marist, Edwardsville, etc.)? Why do certain schools start to excel after a coaching change (ie Leyden)? You did get one thing right regarding the snowball effect. Success does breed success. Everyone wants to be part of a winner. Top teams benefit from this when kids become unhappy (for whatever reason) at their existing school. They see the results, the individual and team success, the scholarship athletes coming out of certain schools and they want to be a part of it. This is human nature. These top schools don't need to recruit because their results speak for themselves.

Next...you bring up the whole "work harder" mentality of a couple of the posters on this web site. First of all, you should never give credence to the vocal minority. The Monitni program is run by Coach Bukovsky, Glenbard North has Coach Hahn, Sandburg had Polz, etc. etc. etc. When a couple of "fans" state something on this message board, it IS NOT a statement by the program. Sometimes we lose sight of that. Secondly, some programs DO work harder (and smarter) than others. Yes, some schools receive more talent, but don't act like every program works as hard as the rest. I have been involved with multiple programs and I KNOW there are varied work levels. This includes in season and out of season.

You are against recruiting, I am against recruiting, we are all against recruiting. However, the start of this post was not about recruiting it was about Robertson transferring from Niles West to Montini. Everything I have heard is that the parents made a decision to transfer based on what they think is best for their kid. This is not recruiting.

The kids that I speak of are the best of the best. Mikey B., Garrett Goebel, the Beebe brothers, the Ramos brothers, Futrell, Polz, Kennedy. Dergo.. the list goes on and on. They are trained by coaches other than just their respective school coaches. If Tony Ramos went to Glenbard South instead of North (as a freshman) and was training with someone like Israel Martinez (one of if not the best right now), he would have still won 2 state titles and a 2nd. Same thing goes for most of the elite guys in the state. There are some pretty damn good coaches out there that just haven't gotten the talent in their room. Feeder programs are getting watered down because kids think they need to wrestle somewhere else to succeed.
I have accepted that private (and some public) schools recruit, or get transfers. (On a side note... I consider a transfer someone who moves into the school district.) I love this sport, and I just want to see good wrestling. I just think it's sad there are programs that are hurt by kids not attending school there based on a wrestling program.

matador · #73 04-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHSAWrestleFan

The kids that I speak of are the best of the best. Mikey B., Garrett Goebel, the Beebe brothers, the Ramos brothers, Futrell, Polz, Kennedy. Dergo.. the list goes on and on. They are trained by coaches other than just their respective school coaches. If Tony Ramos went to Glenbard South instead of North (as a freshman) and was training with someone like Israel Martinez (one of if not the best right now), he would have still won 2 state titles and a 2nd. Same thing goes for most of the elite guys in the state. There are some pretty damn good coaches out there that just haven't gotten the talent in their room. Feeder programs are getting watered down because kids think they need to wrestle somewhere else to succeed.
I have accepted that private (and some public) schools recruit, or get transfers. (On a side note... I consider a transfer someone who moves into the school district.) I love this sport, and I just want to see good wrestling. I just think it's sad there are programs that are hurt by kids not attending school there based on a wrestling program.

Once again, I must disagree with you. There is absolutely no guarantee that Tony Ramos would have the same success if he were at Glenbard South (or Johnsburg). At Glenbard North, he practices with Jimmy Chase and Geno Capezio on a day to day basis. He attends tournaments such as the Clash and the Ironman. He is surrounded by other athletes and coaches who eat, sleep, and live wrestling. Nothing against GBS or Johnsburg, but that simply is not the case there. Speaking of Goebel...no not that one.....no not that one either. Do you remember Pete Goebel? He was an IKWF super stud. He won 2 or 3 titles and dominated kids. He went to Willowbrook and never did anything. Now, I am not knocking Willowbrook as they have proven in the past to be able to develop top notch wrestlers and teams, but maybe that school was simply not a good match for Pete Goebel. Maybe he and the coach didn't get along. Maybe he was not surrounded by good practice partners. Maybe he was not focused on getting better because nobody on the team was able to beat him out. Maybe he wasn't challenged by the schedule. Maybe he wasn't encouraged to wrestle in the off season. For whatever reason, he did not notice as much success at the high school level as he did in the IKWF. This disproves the theory that kids are already "made" by the time they get into high school. There are tons of kids each year that achieve way above and below their IKWF/IESA success. This is because of coaching, scheduling, practice partners, off season dedication, etc, etc, etc.

I think you may be overstating the negative impact of transfers at a school. I'll use the example of DJ Bruce. He left Glenbard East and transferred to Naperville North. Did that really affect Glenbard East's team??? They weren't going to win conference, regionals, or state with or without him. Could they have won a couple more duals here or there? Maybe. But, in the overall scheme of things, does that matter? Did his transfer cause irreparable damage to the Glenbard East program? NO. Remember, kids transfer because they are trying to find a better situation. If all programs had super talented and dedicated coaches and super talented rooms and unbelievable schedules and off season programs, then the need for transferring would not exist.

The brutally honest truth is that most coaches are not willing to put in the time and effort it takes to build an elite program in the state. I commend those who have done so and wish them continued success in the future.

Nelson*0.5 · #74 04-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by matador

Once again, I must disagree with you. There is absolutely no guarantee that Tony Ramos would have the same success if he were at Glenbard South (or Johnsburg). At Glenbard North, he practices with Jimmy Chase and Geno Capezio on a day to day basis. He attends tournaments such as the Clash and the Ironman. He is surrounded by other athletes and coaches who eat, sleep, and live wrestling. Nothing against GBS or Johnsburg, but that simply is not the case there. Speaking of Goebel...no not that one.....no not that one either. Do you remember Pete Goebel? He was an IKWF super stud. He won 2 or 3 titles and dominated kids. He went to Willowbrook and never did anything. Now, I am not knocking Willowbrook as they have proven in the past to be able to develop top notch wrestlers and teams, but maybe that school was simply not a good match for Pete Goebel. Maybe he and the coach didn't get along. Maybe he was not surrounded by good practice partners. Maybe he was not focused on getting better because nobody on the team was able to beat him out. Maybe he wasn't challenged by the schedule. Maybe he wasn't encouraged to wrestle in the off season. For whatever reason, he did not notice as much success at the high school level as he did in the IKWF. This disproves the theory that kids are already "made" by the time they get into high school. There are tons of kids each year that achieve way above and below their IKWF/IESA success. This is because of coaching, scheduling, practice partners, off season dedication, etc, etc, etc.

I think you may be overstating the negative impact of transfers at a school. I'll use the example of DJ Bruce. He left Glenbard East and transferred to Naperville North. Did that really effect Glenbard East's team??? They weren't going to win conference, regionals, or state with or without him. Could they have one a couple more duals here or there? Maybe. But, in the overall scheme of things, does that matter? Did his transfer cause irreparable damage to the Glenbard East program? NO. Remember, kids transfer because they are trying to find a better situation. If all programs had super talented and dedicated coaches and super talented rooms and unbelievable schedules and off season programs, then the need for transferring would not exist.

The brutally honest truth is that most coaches are not willing to put in the time and effort it takes to build an elite program in the state. I commend those who have done so and wish them continued success in the future.

AMEN BRO! I could not agree more with your post. People underestimate the importance that talent in the room plays. People underestimate the importance of numers. People underestimate the importance of tradition. It's hard to keep a great program great, but I would say that it's harder to build a average program into a great program. Some schools are blessed with a few great classes and they rise to a top notch program for a period of time. But, if the other pieces are not in place they will not sustain that level of success for long. You brought up Willowbook and that school is a prime example of a program where the stars aligned for a few years. They had 4-5 classes of great talent. They had an unbelievably talented and dedicated coaching staff. They had numbers. They had a program that kids wanted to be part of. Then they had a coaching change. They had bad blood in the coaching ranks that resulted in a total changing of the guard. They had average talent come through the door with few exceptions like Goebel and the littlest Behnke. They had less numbers. And as a result, they came back to the pack of mediocre teams.

Strong programs with good coaching staffs and good tradition and good numbers feed on their own success. Kids come into those programs and expect to win. They expect to keep the tradition going. They know they are coming into a juggernaut and they want to be part of it. The coaches layout the regiment to make it happen. They structure the practices, they build the schedule, they lead the coaching staff, they secure the very crucial support of the parents, alumni and boosters. It all has its place. All these components are what make it so much more difficult for smaller schools to compete with larger schools. It's possible, but is so much harder to get the talent through the door, so much harder to build the tradition, so much harder to get the talented coaching staff, so much harder to get kids who can/will/want to commit to what it takes to be great in wrestling and give up their other sports.

matador · #75 04-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarah connor

I dont know about any of what you say, I was just told that they have a high percent of guardianship tranfers over the last five years , more than the average. They do have a standard screening process and dont react unless someone complains, I believe its the honor system from what I have been told. More complaints equal more work on their part.

I don't know about any of what I say either, but it sure does sound good when I am typing it.

maddog81 · #76 04-14-2008

As a fellow alumni of Montini I do know that they don't recruit. They push their program with the best coaches, schedule and facilities around the area. The athletes that decide to go there and wrestle are kids looking to better themselves with the potential to go on to college by using Montini's elite program as a stepping stone.

Ace · #77 04-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddog81

As a fellow alumni of Montini I do know that they don't recruit. They push their program with the best coaches, schedule and facilities around the area. The athletes that decide to go there and wrestle are kids looking to better themselves with the potential to go on to college by using Montini's elite program as a stepping stone.

Best facilities? I think not.

Recruiting is Illegal, transferring is not. People are getting the two confused.