Why doesn't Illinois get respect from east coast?

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Tofurky

As Twist said, why do we need respect fm East Coast folks? If we have more respect does it make our kids better wrestlers? No. If we have more respect will that make U of I a powerhouse and #1 team? No. Who cares? Let them think and say whatever they want. Illinois wrestlers will continue their rise up the food chain and before anyone knows it they'll be on par with the Ohios, Californias, New Jerseys and Pennsylvanias.

I was just simply relating the fact that we get no respect from the east coast to the fact that we dont wrestle top out of state competition (with few exceptions twister). And illifornia you dont have to explain to me why illinois is better than california, i know i personaly think that we are better than Ohio right now, few states have the depth that we have. And if you look at how well graduated seniors do in their first year of college, it is evident that illinois is a much tougher state than anyother state in the mid west.

But if the only teams we wrestle are teams in illinois or teams to the same caliber, we our limiting our potential.

[cementjob]

Just curious why you have all decided that IL doesn't get respect from east coast? I am actually from PA and I don't understand what the problem is? People from the east coast probably don't know who IL kids are because well they are from PA and how well do you know the wrestling out there. I think most of the states and wrestlers know each other from summer wrestling and just recently has summer wrestling become something that is encouraged in IL (at least from what I have been told) The freestyle and Greco tournaments are definitely lacking. There is a huge schedule of developmentals at the beginning of the year that for the most part get cancelled. Some of you have mentioned that you are better on a whole than all these east coast states because of your depth and yet you have zero depth on the freestyle and greco levels. I'm not saying that you are not putting quality wrestlers out there for the duals and that they aren't producing because they are, but that's all you've got.
Things are just done very differently here in IL and I am not sure if that makes a difference, but I have noticed that when I first moved here I came in the middle of the season and didn't make it to enough wrestling and was really seeing IL wrestling for the first time at the state tournament and you would never have convinced me that IL wrestling was as good as PA or Ohio. I have sinced decided that it is as good but it is not showcased as well due to silly policies not rules, things that could be changed. IL takes the fan out of the match. And there is too much talent sitting in the stands at Champaign and too many scrubs out there. Outsiders are unable to see just how tough IL is and how everyone can't figure this out is amazing to me due to how well many, many IL wrestlers do well in college. There need to be some changes in IL to showcase the talent better and make sure the best wrestlers are out on the mat in Champaign.
Someone also mentioned that the midwest is a football and basketball place and so is PA but the Lehigh Valley is a hotbed of wrestling as are other areas and they embrace that. The wrestling community makes a big deal out of everything and there is a lot of fanfare and ceremony. That really isn't done in IL. I have suggested it to many coaches and no one is interested. In PA when wrestlers get their 100th win someone from their school goes out on the mat and gives them balloons or something and at tournaments the head table announces it and everyone applauds. The gyms are packed you can't even move during tournaments and qualifiers. I know some schools when they have state champs they are met at the edge of town with fire trucks and police cars and are escorted into town and there are crowds waiting for them. Some of the State Champ contending schools actually have pep rallys. The state tournament is crazy the kids that win are running around trying to get into the stands to get to their family and the rest of their fans. I watched Jeremy Hunter after he won his fourth state title actually climb up through the stands and over the railings to get to his fans and the rest of the arena just watched it was amazing. I have yet to see that kind of stuff in IL.
The talent in IL is not the problem it is all the other stuff. It's the scheduling, the logistics, the fanfare, the way the sectionals are set up, the walkovers(dumbest thing ever). But I have said this all before and no one has ever agreed with me.
Also just curious historically how well do IL wrestlers do at H.S. Nationals? I only ask because I know PA season is like a month longer than IL and I was just wondering if that has had any effect on the IL wrestlers?

[Achilles]

CementJob

I completly agree with you on alot of what you have said. I have heard stories about NJ and PA's state tournaments and how crazy they get. And actually i know quite a bit about east coast wrestling, not as much as Illinois but enough. Also i know that we dont get respect from the east coast as a few of my buddies are from the east coast (mostly NJ) and they give little regard to Illinois. Your right about the depth in freestyle and greco, but its mostly because we dont send all of our kids to those tournaments (although we obv should), and alot of the kids that do go aren't in great shape or dont take it as seriously as the state tournament. As for senior nationals, just like PA this past year we didnt really send very many wrestlers, but some of the kids we did send weren't even state placers and they ended up placing at that tournament. Historicaly i have no clue though, but extending the length of the season would conflict with other sports (not that i care).

One thing that PA has is sooooooo many college wrestling programs, and becasue of that wrestling is naturally going to be a bigger deal in your state, as all the college wrestlers will settle in PA and go on to coach and have kids and have their own kids wrestle and so on. But i hope some of hte ppl in illinois take your advice.

[Tofurky]

Cementjob,

Man, I really think that your post was great. I know that when I was in the military some 12-plus years ago, that the guys from Illinois (for the most part) couldn't keep up with with our Ohio and Penn counterparts when it came to freestyle and Greco. It has picked up more recently, but it never really was stressed at a statewide level. Sure, the Mt. Carmel kids almost all did it, but that was because of Coach Weick. Beyond that, the importance of it just wasn't there through out the state. I've seen it grow by leaps and bounds in the last five years alone. We're definitely headed in the right direction, but we could use more participation that would lead to greater depth.

One way I think that we really dropped the ball as a commjunity was by not funding the Big Guy to host the IHSA state finals. I've had many conversations with Mr. Maher and he always said "you guys all claim to have deep pockets, but you never want to dip into them." I really believe that was a golden opportunity for us to really put the sport out there to people who might not otherwise be exposed to it. You don't see him on this board anymore and I think he feels that we were just a passing phase in his effort to promote high school athletics of all kinds. We could use local cable access stations to promote us. I constantly see IHSA football, basketball and other sports on, along with some local D-III school sports being televised, so why not wrestling?

With that being said, one other thing I think that we do as a community, myself included at times, is take the stance that we don't do this for fame and exposure and that we don't need the press to survive. While this is very true, I think that our lack of effort to gain exposure is keeping people from learning more about our sport and keeping potentially incredible athletes from becoming wrestlers, which also increases our recognizability. The greater exposure we have in our circles of friends, in our schools, in our communities and in our state only makes wrestling stronger for all of us.

Upping college wrestling opportunities in this state would be awesome. It mistifies me that College of DuPage doesn't have a program anymore with the amount of people coming through its doors each day. Eastern's program needs a serious jolt (a shake up of the coaching staff would be great start), SIUE's program is on the rise and ISU could use a program once again. We have the opportunities, but our voice isn't strong enough to make these sorts of things happen.

We also need to petition the IHSA for more control over our sport. The 350 mile rule is an absolute joke. Our teams should be able to seek out the Powerades, the Beasts of the Easts, and others that will undoubtedly rise up. Why not give our kids the opoprtunity to earn top rankings in the nation by wrestling in those tournaments?

The walk over rule does suck. I would love to see fuill wrestle backs regardless if it adds two hours to the regional and four the sectional. I believe that it would make for a much stronger and more difficult state series for the most part.

There are a ton of things that we could stand to improve, but what we currently have control over is our kids competing in the "off-season" and using the media to promote our sport. The TV is used more now than ever before, newspaper readership is on the decline and we have yet to embrace that trend. I believe that if we do soon, we'll see noticable changes in our state in the next five to seven years.

Great thread and discussion!

[Jaguar]

Good post cementjob. We need other perspectives. I find it interesting that the closest thing that comes to that kind of fanfare is Class A wrestling. You don't see Class AA wrestlers jumping into their coaches arms when they win or an enitre section of the Assembly Hall erupt into a frenzy on the Class AA side. And some people want to do away with Class A (... but I digress).

Achilles is right about the number of college wrestling programs, at all levels in PA. Even Iowa has more college programs available (I think) than Illinois. Twist is right about the way Iowa, Nebraska, etc. promote their high school sports in general. When I went to school in Iowa in the late '70's, I remember seeing girls basketball games on TV. Also, the Iowa/Iowa State wrestling meets were HUGE, with pre-meet coverage the week before and HUGE crowds filling the gym.

I also don't think we "market" ourselves enough. The Minnesota national teams have a close connection with the University of Minnesota. They get money from the University, and they are sponsored by Gatorade. Minnesota has a very organized Statewide freestyle and Greco program. So does Wisconsin. We are getting better, but we are far from what other states do.

[cementjob]

The idea of affiliating the youth programs with the college programs is an idea that would absolutely work and would benefit all parties. I used to work for A D-I wrestling program and did some marketing and promotions for them. We created a fan club and included all of the youth clubs and the junior highs and high school teams and the coaches sent us their addresses and we sent mailings to them and they were very up to date on what was going on in our program. We developed a mutually benefitial relationship with them that can only promote and be a positive for wrestling in your state. They also participated in many of our home meet activities such as having exhibition matches before one of our home meets. It's exciting for the youth wrestlers and you would be surprised at how many more fans it brings to the college meets. And here in IL the younger kids are familiar with the wrestlers at U of I because many if not most of them are from IL. We need to support the college programs and help market them because that is what peaks the participation on the youth level. Kids want to play football before they are even at the right age because they see everybody watching college ball and the NFL. It's celebrity to them and we need to make college wrestling that way and olympic wrestling. It seems to be scoffed at here. 2 years ago Olympic team trials were held in Indianapolis, all state champs from all 50 states were invited. Before the finals they were brought out on to the mats and had their names announced. I don't recall any IL wrestlers being there and I expected to see almost all of them. Those high school wrestlers also did a meet and greet with the olympic team and they were invited to hear Dan Gable speak. What an opportunity? Not to mention the wrestling. Some of the best wrestling, Dennis Hall's amazing overtime match in the finals. Plus there were IL guys participating and IL women. And there was no one there( that I recall). Of course some of the kids didn't want to go but some of it is parents bringing their kids to these events.
I was very surprised at the difference in the number of colleges in IL compared to PA. But I am also very aware that a lot of the problems are money problems and to me it is shame to see that the colleges can't afford to have wrestling programs or like Eastern, they have a program but they have no money to offer when recruiting, suddenly it's hard to be competitive. And no one is donating money, but we are starting to send are kids to ridiculously over priced clubs. I have no criticism of the coaching that goes on in the clubs or what they are producing but why put the money there when you could donate it to colleges to start programs. The clubs on the senior level are non profit. We need clubs like that. We are putting thousands upon thousands of dollars into something that should be attained for free. If you are looking to make money off wrestling, make it on the collegiate level and leave the volunteer work on the high school and youth levels. All that money is wasted when these kids have put all that money into club wrestling and have no place to wrestle when they go to college. And it amazes me when I hear kids and parents saying that they are only wrestling in college if they get some money, why? You paid for it when you were in high school and kids club and you weren't even getting the education with it.

[baddoz11]

Cementjob,

I wish to subscribe to your monthly newsletter!! The insight have supplied on this topic has been unmatched. Thank you for the quality reading and I hope you keep it coming.

[MR TWISTER]

Every now and then we get a string on here that is superb.

I believe it is a mistake to not increase the pubic awareness of wrestling in Illinois. These are the hardest working athletes in the state and they deserve recognition.

[Hanging out in Cali]

Cementjob said, "You paid for it when you were in high school and kids club and you weren't even getting the education with it." The education I received in high school was every bit as good as good as the one I received in college. It was much harder to continue to wrestle in college as the training required more time and took away from my studies. I was in high school and college for the same reason--> my studies, not wrestling. At each level of education, the academic achievement means more to ones' career. I believe this is what kids are referring to when they say they will wrestle only if they are on scholarship.

However, I do agree with you that raping parents for better wrestling training is not going to help wrestling in Illinois as a whole. Our former Illinois greats have the right to extort from the wrestling community the wrestling opportunities that came to them so cheaply from this same community. They are trying to make a living from wrestling, not trying to give back to it. I am sure that there will be people on both sides of this argument. They will, however, make the best better, so that some people can live vicariously through them and say how great we all are. There are plenty of great wrestlers who are positively contributing to the wrestling community solely because they love wrestling. I am sure this forum has plenty of them. I would rather thank them than condemn the others.

Somebody suggested a great idea earlier. It was to have competitions against the best. I also like the idea of linking up kids' wrestling to local universities. There is no way to move the mountain (IHSA) to allow for our best to travel. So the obvious idea is to invite them here. The Dvorak is an Illinois tournament and probably will not be well-known, nor much of a draw. I think a better idea would be to link up with a well-known tournament, something that would excite people from all over the country. Would anybody be interested in a Jr. Midlands? I think that having a huge tournament located in Chicago, centrally located, would be well recieved all over this country. I also know that Northwestern has thought about this kind of event. I think a little elbow grease could make this happen. The major problem would be as always IHSA rules.

To the question at hand, "Why doesn't Illinois get respect from east coast?" It is a flawed question. The east coast has a strong bias that the rest of the country are backward hicks. The greatest live there and the rest are country folk. Everybody everywhere else knows the Midwest has great wrestling and usually considers Ohio and PA as part of the midwest. Illinois could go there, beat all the east coast teams and wrestlers, and still not get any respect, simply becasue they are not east coast people. Why do you care so much about what east coast people think? So what if they do not respect Illinois' wrestlers. What would it mean? Its wrestlers have the respect of college coaches. Isn't it their opinion that matters? I really could care less what people, who pride themselves on being ignorant about the rest of the country, think of the rest of the country, in general, or Illinois, specifically. I have lived in New York and still have family there. I am quite familiar with this bias. I really do not care about their opinions. I would like to see more competition against the best, because I love wrestling, not for some need of vicarious respect.

Mike

[Attitude]

Cementjob, you are providing us with great insight. Thanks and keep it up. I'd like to add a couple notes to a couple of your statements...

Originally Posted by cementjob

And no one is donating money, but we are starting to send our kids to ridiculously over priced clubs. I have no criticism of the coaching that goes on in the clubs or what they are producing but why put the money there when you could donate it to colleges to start programs.

"overpriced" is a relative term. They are a lot less than 4 years of college and if you have the desire and the talent, these clubs can go a long way in getting you to that level which may just get you that scholarship.

You are only going to donate to a program you have a connection with which usually means an alumni or family member. Taking a kid out of a club to send money to a college he may or may not attend seems a bit unrealistic. The fundraising activity here needs to be directed from the inside out, not outside in.

Originally Posted by cementjob

The clubs on the senior level are non profit. We need clubs like that. We are putting thousands upon thousands of dollars into something that should be attained for free. If you are looking to make money off wrestling, make it on the collegiate level and leave the volunteer work on the high school and youth levels.

I think you've got that exactly backwards. The numbers of collegiate wrestlers is what, 1/10th of 1 percent of the high school wrestlers? (no idea, just a number for reference). If a club tries to make money on collegiate level alone, they won't make it. It's simply a matter of economics.

Plus, I will add that most of the work done at the high school and youth levels IS voluntary here in Illinois...or essentially so. The stipend for a high school coach is paltry. Barely enough to cover their extra expenses.

Originally Posted by cementjob

All that money is wasted when these kids have put all that money into club wrestling and have no place to wrestle when they go to college. And it amazes me when I hear kids and parents saying that they are only wrestling in college if they get some money, why? You paid for it when you were in high school and kids club and you weren't even getting the education with it.

Most of the high schools, save a few, do not have the time or facilities to train these kids to that next level. What are they to do? Waste the desire and talent? It would be interesting to see how many of the AA champions in Illinois have no outside training. I'll bet not many. May not be the case in other states but it's a reality for now here.

Wrestling is hard, a lot harder than football or basketball, in terms of training and time commitments. Most kids won't continue on unless there is some payback. I can't fault them at all for saying they won't do it unless there is money involved. Let's face it, scholarships go both ways...it's a commitment from the wrestler to stay with the program but it's also a commitment from the school to do whatever it can to get that kid on the mat. If you aren't on scholarship, your chances of seeing a varsity match are much less than your counterpart who is getting money.

We have to raise the awareness in the community for the sport. Right now, the only major coverage we get is when one of our star athletes gets busted for muggings or something. That has to change and I like your approach. Question is how do we start?