Montell Marion

[agdfan]

Hawki...let me first clarify that although I am from Illinois I am not an Illini fan, nor am I a Hawkeye fan. We do have friends both past and present on both teams that we have and do root for. Knowing some of these past and present Iowa team members, I can say with good conscience that I would never want my son to wrestle for Iowa. I will not state names or specific instances as these do involve kids and parents we know well, but I will say there have definitely been some questionable ethical decisions made by the coaching staff in the recent past. The conclusion I have drawn is that it is a "win at all costs" program, and while that may be fine with some, it would not be fine with me as a parent. I strongly suspect MM will be reinstated to the team and yet another questionable decision made. And for the record, I also wouldn't want my son wrestling for Illinois either, but for completely different reasons...

[wrestlingfan50]

OK Hawki, since nobody else seems willing to engage you I'll bite. First, lets see if we can agree that anyone posting here or at any other forum is free to express whatever opinion they like, so long as they stay within the rules of the forum. I don't think anyone has broken any forum rules here, they have expressed an opinion.

There definitely has been some hyperbole thrown out there in many of these posts, including yours, but no one ever stated that what they were writing should be taken as fact. Nearly everyone that posts here (except perhaps you) understands that people are giving their opinion and that in many instances that will lead to someone else giving an opposite opinion.

Now lets get to the specifics of the Iowa comments. Let me start by saying that I respect the Iowa program, I don't like them but I respect them. There is no denying that they have been a dominant program, but many people would opine that they don't do it with class. I happen to feel that that is exactly what Iowa is striving to do, basically give everybody the middle finger while they stand on the podium. Now, Iowa can project any image they choose, but don't be surprised when many non Iowa fans take offense at that image.

For example, the Iowa coaches are prone to be over the top while in the coaching chairs, roaming outside the acceptable bounds of the "coaches box", engaging the other coaches in close matches and trying their best to intimidate referees. That's my opinion having been at several competitions over the last few years where Iowa has been present. I get the us vs. them mentality, but you can still comport yourself with some class and sportsmanship.

I believe it was last year during one of the McDonough vs Long matches where coach Brands made a complete jackass of himself when he tried to show up coach Jackson at the end of the match. Why is that necessary? I understand that coaches get intense, matches get intense, wrestlers get intense, but does he really think that that's the best image to project for Iowa wrestling?

Why do you think the vast majority of the crowd at the 2009 NCAA Championships and 2010 Big Ten Championships went crazy when Metcalf lost? I don't think the crowd was really showing animus toward Metcalf as much as they were raising their middle finger back to the Iowa program. What goes around comes around.

None of us know or frankly care what coach Brands is thinking or what type of program he runs. All we can do is observe what image his program projects and it's safe to say that image is not well received by many wrestling fans.

But hey that's the beauty of opinions, everybody has one.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by trunt67

lol your posts gave me a chuckle with the quotes and forum post numbers...well thought out amigo

Not well thought out at all. Hawkis' posts lacked any meat or explanation . They were designed to attack the poster rather than the subject matter!

Brands own explanation for why Brands pulled out of the National Duals doesn't make any sense and goes against everything Brands has ever said about good competition!Hawki is taking shots at the messengers that recognize this fact. Well Mr Hawki,go shoot Gable because he agrees that Brands was wrong! Gable has just been kinder in his choice of words.

Brands reinstatement of a wrestler with a troubled past over a solid performer that is undefeated speaks volumes about what is important to Brands. Hawki offered no defense because he has none. Instead he wants to shoot the messengers again!

People do not be fooled by this character,Hawki. His only purpose on this board is to stop the wave of negative publicity that Brands and Iowa are recieving for these poor decisions by Brands.He wants to draw sympathy and keep their neighbor to the East (Illinois)and our fertile recruiting grounds thinking that God has designated Iowa as the mecca of wrestling and that Brands is the coach that puts wrestlers before winning.But Brands recent actions prove otherwise.

I'm not buying this apologists' aproach and hopefully none of the parents that read these boards and have a blue chip wrestler will either. Although his message includes certain posters names his real message is aimed at blue chip parents.

[Hawki]

Originally Posted by agdfan

Hawki...let me first clarify that although I am from Illinois I am not an Illini fan, nor am I a Hawkeye fan. We do have friends both past and present on both teams that we have and do root for. Knowing some of these past and present Iowa team members, I can say with good conscience that I would never want my son to wrestle for Iowa. I will not state names or specific instances as these do involve kids and parents we know well, but I will say there have definitely been some questionable ethical decisions made by the coaching staff in the recent past. The conclusion I have drawn is that it is a "win at all costs" program, and while that may be fine with some, it would not be fine with me as a parent. I strongly suspect MM will be reinstated to the team and yet another questionable decision made. And for the record, I also wouldn't want my son wrestling for Illinois either, but for completely different reasons...

Good post. Makes sense. Apparently you have access to reliable, inside info that the rest of us aren't privileged to have available. And that's fine. And definitely no need to reveal any names or instances. I appreciate that you have inside sources that would make you question the ethics of some of the schools you mention. However, you must also realize that the info you have been given is, by definition, biased and one sided. You hear the "facts and ethical decisions" that the coaching staff is alledged to have made from only one perspective. The perspective of your friends and team members, may or may not be accurate as to what the "real" issues the coaching staff is realy working with and using to make their decisions. Your friends may be ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT, but we don't know that for sure. They may believe it, you may believe it and, if told the details, I might even believe it also. And what seems to be completely logical and obvious may not be what is really going on behind the scenes. And all of us may be completely off the mark. Or maybe even very close with most of the details, and we still may not know or be aware of the most important facts that are used in making a decision. We just don't know for sure. Unless we're in the room with the coaches and have all of the knowledge they do, we are really only partially informed at best. And usually from a source that has a particular perspective on the situation. Maybe positive and maybe not so positive.

I think that is part of my complaint with the attacks on Brands. People have no real knowledge of what reasoning and motivation goes on in the decision making process he has to go thru because they don't have all the facts he and his staff have. And yet, posts are made discrediting him and attacking his character so very casually and claiming knowledge of his motives. It's all very obvious and plain to see they insinuate. And I say, no it is not! Just because something appears obvious, and we think we can see a pattern and connect the dots, doesn't make it true or correct. Life isn't that simple. And I really don't care if we're talking about Brands or Cael Sanderson at Penn State or Rob Koll at Cornell. Cael is catching crap about allowing Long onto the team, without Long apparently following the guidelines that KJ set down for him at ISU to get reinstated there. We don't know that or any of the inside details of the situation. We will probably never know. We may hear rumors and maybe some inside info, but we'll never REALLY know everything. And yet people post garbage as if they really do know all the details and motives. I'm just saying BS!

And these innuendos about "selling your soul" and "Brands as God" is so absolutely despicable that I can't believe actual adults are posting them. It's the kind of stuff that jealous, female teeny-boppers would post about someone they thought was trying to steal their boyfriend. Or perhaps maybe a "Guest" of the State of Illinois down in Joliet, I think it is, that is in lockdown 23 hours a day and has access to a computer the other hour. Really some high class stuff there. (Sarcasm Alert!) Absolutely amazing!

[tilt]

His last post demonstrates that he stereotypes young women. All of his posts demonstrate that he is an apologist for Brands recent questionable actions.

But he is correct about one thing. Namely, that if you look hard enough you can gleen a posters real intentions and designs by their posts.

Hawki doesn't know any of the posters that he has attacked. He is not from our state. His real objective is to circumvent any negative publicity that Brands and Iowa are suffering right now because Iowa is having a down year and Illinois is rich with blue chip recruits that could help them in the next few years. People you better believe that.

Hawki has opened my eyes and I will now watch Iowa and their approach to success with even greater scrutiny.I suggest that the parents of juniors and senior blue chippers do the same.

The funny thing is that this poster tried to sway public opinion but flushed out a very respected poster that had a very good wrestler that stated their son would never go to Iowa based on intimate knowledge. My guess is that there may now be more posters like that coming forward.

[tilt]

Please leave this thread open. I would love to hear more about why some parents of Blue chippers did not send their kids to Iowa. I would love to have this thread open while Brands recent decisions play out in the near future.

I think the weaker schedule does not help Iowa at the end of this year.

I think the reinstatement of Marion does not help team morale and does make potential recruits and the parents question what Iowa wrestling values most.

I can't wait to see posts on these subject matters in the upcoming weeks and months.

Thank you.

[MR TWISTER]

Originally Posted by tilt

Please leave this thread open. I would love to hear more about why some parents of Blue chippers did not send their kids to Iowa. I would love to have this thread open while Brands recent desions play out in the near future.

I think the weaker schedule does not help Iowa at the end of this year.

I think the reinstatement of Marion does not help team morale and does make potential recruits and the parents question what Iowa wrestling values most.

I can't wait to see posts on these subject matters in the upcoming weeks and months.

Thank you.

I see no reason at this time that I would close this thread. Admin (or other moderators) may or may not be of the same opinion as I have.

Personally I dont have a problem with Hawk1 being of different opinion than those of us on our "little regional board" (sure was not that long ago we were NATIONAL WRESTLING WEBSITE OF THE YEAR) here in Illinois. I don't quiet understand why he feels it is ok to take the same potshots at the Illini that he accuses others of doing to Iowa / Brands but if I wait long enough I bet he will tell us why? I guess he is our moral thought process and we didn't know it.
I will say that he is an excellent writer though and I await responses from posters like NF, Tofurky, restling, Lockjaw, Tom C., Will-I-Am, more tilt and agfan, mckbln, Advocate, HeadHunter, Cubs84, Jaguar, Danny Burk and the rest of our regular posters who are of equal writing skill level.

Never a dull moment...on our little regional board...

[sweetsweep22]

First, though I'm sure most people on here have realized by now, I am an Iowa fan. I'm also an Illinois fan (I know for many on here it's unthinkable to like both). I wouldn't call myself a "super fan," but I root for them. Frankly, I think the root of most people's problem with Iowa (though they would NEVER admit it) is jealousy. Not jealous of the program necessarily, but jealous of the results. People like to complain about how awful Iowa fans are, but really I think they are just passionate and loyal fans. It's easy to get pissed and call the opposing fans obnoxious when they are kicking the crap out of your team. Other programs have equally "annoying" fans (seen any Penn State duals this year?) To be honest, I wish Illinois fans were half as passionate as Iowa fans...

I agree with Hawki that it is inappropriate for people to be claiming that any wrestler is "selling his soul" or whatever by wrestling for Iowa. That's such a ridiculous claim. Did Daniel Dennis sell his soul? His was a great story of a kid who wasn't a blue chip recruit but still wanted to become one the best college wrestlers in the country, so he decided to do it by going to the toughest college program in the country. And guess what? He did it! Look at someone like Mark Perry. If I remember right, he also had some run-ins with the law and got in some trouble, but rather than booting him, he was allowed to earn his way back into the coach's good graces and he went on to win another national title. Of course he sold his soul in the process and is now a miserable excuse for a human being with nothing to offer anyone, right? Oh, wait, he's now a successful co-head coach and has been a huge part in the emergence of one of the most up and coming programs on the west coast. There are many stories like these. People are pretty quick to forget/ignore the fact that Iowa has produced more great college coaches than any other program in the country.

As far as Brands "not caring about the individuals," I think there is more evidence to the contrary. Do you really think guys like Metcalf, Borschel, Slaton etc. would have transferred and sacrificed a year of eligibility for a coach who doesn't care about them? Dan LeClere was a 4x Iowa state champ (undefeated?) who only ever managed to crack the starting lineup one season at Iowa. He easily could have transferred and started almost anywhere else but he chose to stay. After being the national runner-up his sophomore year, Joe Slaton lost his starting spot to Dennis and never started again. He also could have transferred elsewhere, but he chose to stay. Take a look at Iowa's roster. You will see many names of juniors and seniors that you've never heard of because they've never started. Yet rather than quitting they remain on the team and endure the demanding and difficult Iowa wrestling lifestyle. Would they do this for a coach who clearly doesn't care about them? Over the past few years I've noticed that Iowa has a surprisingly low rate of attrition when compared to other D1 programs. Are all these kids just gluttons for punishment? Maybe, just maybe, Brands isn't the devil you all think him to be and he actually does care about his wrestlers, which is why they, in turn, demonstrate an impressive amount of loyalty to him. A loyalty that can only be earned...

People hate Iowa because Iowa wins, plain and simple. It seems obvious that this is true because the stuff that happens at Iowa happens in programs all over the country and nobody says a thing. Penn State, arguably the most exciting team in the country, is not going to National Duals. Has anybody complained? Not that I've heard. Even our very own Fighting Illini who are a SOLID dual team with top ten potential have opted not to go and has anybody even mentioned it? Nope, we'd rather sit around and complain about how just plain awful Iowa and Brands are.

For example, the Iowa coaches are prone to be over the top while in the coaching chairs, roaming outside the acceptable bounds of the "coaches box", engaging the other coaches in close matches and trying their best to intimidate referees.

Watch much college wrestling? Iowa coaches are far from the only ones who do this, they're just the only ones who get complained about for doing it. John Smith does this a lot, and I even remember seeing Mark Johnson do this from time to time.

Brands reinstatement of a wrestler with a troubled past over a solid performer that is undefeated speaks volumes about what is important to Brands.

How about Sanderson? Bryan Pearsall has more than earned his spot at 133 for Penn State with wins over guys like Langel and Triggas, but now he is likely to get booted because Cael is bringing in Andrew Long, a guy who wasn't even willing to do what it takes to get reinstated on his old team. According to you, what does this say about Sanderson? Do you honestly believe that a college coach should base who he puts in his lineup on character/integrity rather than talent and ability to win? I've said it before, but some of you guys need to wake up and realize that this is college wrestling, and winning, not personal growth or whatever, is the ultimate goal.

Remember Kenny Jordan? Here's another kid with a troubled past to say the least. Yet he's recently been given another chance (what is this now, his 5th? 6th?) and we have a topic with about three pages of people congratulating him. If what Twister has said is true, Kenny is also going to be starting over a pretty good wrestler who has paid his dues. What does this say about the coach at Adams State? How come these standards only ever seem to apply to Iowa? Marion was punished for what he did. He lost a semester of competition and now he's being allowed to return. Deal with it...

I remember when Eric Tannenbaum was in high school and he became one of the most rooted against wrestlers in the state simply because he was a winner. Assembly Hall went CRAZY when Kucala pinned him his sophomore year in the finals. Another year in the finals I remember Assembly Hall booing him. When a person/program establishes themself/itself as the best, people are naturally going to dislike them and criticize everything they do, and it's usually just a veiled form of envy. Once he signed with Michigan, I remember lots of people on this board were outraged that he wasn't going to Illinois, and some people suggested that perhaps he felt no loyalty to Illinois since Illinois had pretty much despised him his last couple years of high school. Point of that little story is - it's lonely at the top.

[Radical]

Really? Are we actually questioning the reinstatement of a 22 year old kid who made some alcohol induced mistakes or has an alchohol problem? Why don't we pull the law licenses of every lawyer who has had a DUI, remove every Judge who has had a DUI from the bench, pull the license of every physician and nurse who has a prescription pill problem, fire every teacher who was arrested in a domestic disupte with his or her spouse, or even better yet, tear up Lindsey Lohan's SAG card!!! We don't because that approach just doesn't work, it's detrimental to society, and just not what most of America is about. A coach has great lattitude and his decisions in matters of this nature should be given deference. These decisions will not always be perfect or work out. But second chances are what our society is all about.

P.S. I wouldn't miss Lindsey if they did tear up her SAG card.

[Hawki]

Originally Posted by wrestlingfan50

OK Hawki, since nobody else seems willing to engage you I'll bite. First, lets see if we can agree that anyone posting here or at any other forum is free to express whatever opinion they like, so long as they stay within the rules of the forum. I don't think anyone has broken any forum rules here, they have expressed an opinion.

There definitely has been some hyperbole thrown out there in many of these posts, including yours, but no one ever stated that what they were writing should be taken as fact. Nearly everyone that posts here (except perhaps you) understands that people are giving their opinion and that in many instances that will lead to someone else giving an opposite opinion.

Now lets get to the specifics of the Iowa comments. Let me start by saying that I respect the Iowa program, I don't like them but I respect them. There is no denying that they have been a dominant program, but many people would opine that they don't do it with class. I happen to feel that that is exactly what Iowa is striving to do, basically give everybody the middle finger while they stand on the podium. Now, Iowa can project any image they choose, but don't be surprised when many non Iowa fans take offense at that image.

For example, the Iowa coaches are prone to be over the top while in the coaching chairs, roaming outside the acceptable bounds of the "coaches box", engaging the other coaches in close matches and trying their best to intimidate referees. That's my opinion having been at several competitions over the last few years where Iowa has been present. I get the us vs. them mentality, but you can still comport yourself with some class and sportsmanship.

I believe it was last year during one of the McDonough vs Long matches where coach Brands made a complete jackass of himself when he tried to show up coach Jackson at the end of the match. Why is that necessary? I understand that coaches get intense, matches get intense, wrestlers get intense, but does he really think that that's the best image to project for Iowa wrestling?

Why do you think the vast majority of the crowd at the 2009 NCAA Championships and 2010 Big Ten Championships went crazy when Metcalf lost? I don't think the crowd was really showing animus toward Metcalf as much as they were raising their middle finger back to the Iowa program. What goes around comes around.

None of us know or frankly care what coach Brands is thinking or what type of program he runs. All we can do is observe what image his program projects and it's safe to say that image is not well received by many wrestling fans.

But hey that's the beauty of opinions, everybody has one.

Thanks for commenting 50. I see a well reasoned and thought out post and I actually AGREE with some of your points. Suprise, Suprise! Who wouldda thunk it? But then of course, there are your Obvious errors in clear, rational thought

OK, lets see what we have here. No breaking of rules, well,Ok I guess. If Brands is not a member of the board, then he's not getting attacked or called names I guess is the thinking there, right?

And I'm the only one that doesn't see that these are all only opinions people are expressing rather than posting things as facts that they know for sure. Yes, Ok, but you do realize that I am chuckling softly to myself over that. I'm the only one who sees it that way? Softly giggling now, sorry just can't help myself.

You respect Iowa's program, but think they are giving everybody the middle finger. I assume you have some pretty good reasons to see it that way I hope, rather than just pulling that kind of opinion out of thin air. I don't understand your point of view, but hey, that's ok. You state it as Your opinion and don't try and come across as if it's some fact. I see Iowa as saying "we're Winners." We are going to out work you, out train you, out technique you and out hustle you. You may be better than us, but we will still beat you on the mat because we are going to develope the "Heart of a Champion" in our wrestlers and they will overcome obstacles you can't See Dan Dennis as an example of that. And maybe Matt McDonough developed and demonstrated some of that "Heart thingy" last year. ( I'm going to Midlands this year and wondering what Precin's got for Matt?)

Ok, here comes the agreement part. Settle down, settle down! Yes I think Brands, Brands, and Zaddick are way over the top with their matside antics. A LOT of good, honest Iowa fans think so too. I do not know which particular incident you are referring to, but I vaguely remember seeing something at the Iowa-ISU dual match and when they met at Nat. duals last year. It was talked about on the Iowa boards and iirc Coach Jackson and his assistants were over the top also. I don't know who started what, but both side were at fault and showed very poor class and sportsmanship. Understanding the parties involved though, you gotta admit, that it is easy to see how they All could lose control of their emotions and get sucked into the moment. I'd love to be in a foxhole with any of them protecting me. They all need a refresher course from Miss Manners though. But then many of the D1 coaches "lose it " quite a bit. Cael, John Smith, etc. As they age, they appear to mellow somewhat. Thsi lack of proper comportment is not confined to wrestling coaches. Think football, basketball, etc. Did you see the Illinois Basketball coach this past week at the Ill-Missouri game. A trifle bit upset there at the end of the game. I personally think the NCAA and referees need to rein in these coaches quite a bit more. They are on national TV throwing tantrums. It's sport, not life and death murder trials.

I also agree the reaction to Metcalfs loss was not directed at him, but at the Iowa program in general. However I still don't don't see the middle finger salute thingy. I think it was saying more of "see, you're not always going to win. Even your best wrestler can be beat." Don't you wish you had put some real cash down on that match. Think of the odds you would have been given. Wow, retire early is all I can say.

Thanks for the sane, logical reply to my rants. You must not have understood what I was trying to say obviously!