Oklahoma State, IL recruiting

[JayC]

Originally Posted by Greenskin

In my ignorance I have always considered wrestling a sport of control. Controling an opponent is not always flashy and does not always result in a lot of points. If you can "stall" and still win the match, it doesn't really matter, does it? Most kids that go through a program are happy if they just win. Helping the majority of kids who will not be or cannot be state or national champs win has always been important to me. That is a huge part of this sport.

Wrestling is a great a spectator sport all right. That is why so many kids flock to it. That's why it gets so much coverage in the local newspapers. That's why Sports Center has a nightly segment on wrestling. That's why there is a professional wrestling circuit for kids to aspire to. That's why wrestling coaches make so much money. That's why colleges are dropping the program. That's why they have advance ticket sales for Thursday night high school duals. That's why high schools routinely hold pep rallies for their wrestling teams. We are one of the top high school wrestling states in the country and that's why we fill the gyms for our dual meets (well at least mom and dad might come).

The sport has existed for thousands of years and has evolved to what it is today. I love it...most do not. If you want to be successful in the sport, learn how to win. As far as who agrees with me, I couldn't care less. Don't you know that 74.865% of all statistics are made up on the spot? Your 99%, therefore, doesn't scare me.

Maybe people aren't flocking to your dual meets because you want to have 14 guys hang on for a one point win. I never said that wrestling was one of the "major" spectator sports. But, through the hard work of a lot of people, the popularity in the youth ranks, and the fact that it is entertaining, our college championship is aired live on ESPN. There are dual meets being telivised all the time. People watch wrestling. They enjoy it. I was even approached by a few people from outside the sport that caught the NCAA finals on ESPN that commented on how good David Taylor and Ed Ruth were and how fun they were to watch. We are never going to compete with the BCS or the mens bball Final Four as far as ratings but we are making gains. The reason we are making gains is because of young men that score a lot of points and are fun to watch.

Gable understands this. JRob understands this. They have stated that their goal is to produce wrestlers that have a highly aggresive, entertaining style. They want to win and they want fans in the stands. They want guys going for falls. They want their guys to score a lot of points. I've never heard a successful coach say "my goal is to teach my wrestlers how to hang on for a one point win."

As far as developing wrestlers goes. I want my guys trying to score points. I'll take aggresive mistakes that lead to losses so that my guy can be better in the long run. I'd rather lose 10-9 than 1-0. And with the "fur flying" in that 10-9 match, I think fans would appreciate that too.

[Flobro]

Originally Posted by JayC

Maybe people aren't flocking to your dual meets because you want to have 14 guys hang on for a one point win. I never said that wrestling was one of the "major" spectator sports. But, through the hard work of a lot of people, the popularity in the youth ranks, and the fact that it is entertaining, our college championship is aired live on ESPN. There are dual meets being telivised all the time. People watch wrestling. They enjoy it. I was even approached by a few people from outside the sport that caught the NCAA finals on ESPN that commented on how good David Taylor and Ed Ruth were and how fun they were to watch. We are never going to compete with the BCS or the mens bball Final Four as far as ratings but we are making gains. The reason we are making gains is because of young men that score a lot of points and are fun to watch.

Gable understands this. JRob understands this. They have stated that their goal is to produce wrestlers that have a highly aggresive, entertaining style. They want to win and they want fans in the stands. They want guys going for falls. They want their guys to score a lot of points. I've never heard a successful coach say "my goal is to teach my wrestlers how to hang on for a one point win."

As far as developing wrestlers goes. I want my guys trying to score points. I'll take aggresive mistakes that lead to losses so that my guy can be better in the long run. I'd rather lose 10-9 than 1-0. And with the "fur flying" in that 10-9 match, I think fans would appreciate that too.

This is such a non-argument. Of course high-scoring matches are more fun to watch for the casual fan... but winning counts most. In order to even get noticed by the coaches you speak of (JRob/Gable/Brands), recruits must be winning. If they're losing the majority of their matches 11-10 (and in your mind "developing" further), they will not even show up on anyone's radar. Maybe they'll end up putting on quite a show in DIII or Juco. Meanwhile, Brands and JRob will continue to turn out DI finalists gutting out one and two-point decisions. They preach a highly-aggressive mentality because they have a good grasp on marketing and adopting a brand. They know in the end that winning matters most, no matter the score.

[Greenskin]

Originally Posted by Flobro

This is such a non-argument. Of course high-scoring matches are more fun to watch for the casual fan... but winning counts most. In order to even get noticed by the coaches you speak of (JRob/Gable/Brands), recruits must be winning. If they're losing the majority of their matches 11-10 (and in your mind "developing" further), they will not even show up on anyone's radar. Maybe they'll end up putting on quite a show in DIII or Juco. Meanwhile, Brands and JRob will continue to turn out DI finalists gutting out one and two-point decisions. They preach a highly-aggressive mentality because they have a good grasp on marketing and adopting a brand. They know in the end that winning matters most, no matter the score.

Thank you.

[JayC]

Originally Posted by Flobro

This is such a non-argument. Of course high-scoring matches are more fun to watch for the casual fan... but winning counts most. In order to even get noticed by the coaches you speak of (JRob/Gable/Brands), recruits must be winning. If they're losing the majority of their matches 11-10 (and in your mind "developing" further), they will not even show up on anyone's radar. Maybe they'll end up putting on quite a show in DIII or Juco. Meanwhile, Brands and JRob will continue to turn out DI finalists gutting out one and two-point decisions. They preach a highly-aggressive mentality because they have a good grasp on marketing and adopting a brand. They know in the end that winning matters most, no matter the score.

You are missing my point. Of course winning is the most important thing. You can't win if you don't put points on the board. You can't score points unless you pull the trigger. Meaning that you have to take risks. Look at the Illini turn-around this year for example. If you watch this year's team vs the last 4 years you will find that they attacked more this year. The rules favor attacking. Our sport is about attacking. The more opportunities that you give yourself to score, the more opportunities you give yourself to win. Even when the guys in big time college programs are "just riding" they are attacking to get that riding time point.

Yes you have to be able to win those 2-1 matches but the guys that intentionally slow down matches and try to win capitalizing on that one sure thing scoring opportunity usually fail. Look at Jamaal Parks for Okie State this year. He is a prime example. If you're going to go down, make sure you go down with no bullets left in the gun. If not, you're cheating yourself. You are cheating the fans. You are cheating the sport.

Brands, JRob, Cael, Heff, all of them want their guys to keep attacking... keep scoring.

[Greenskin]

Originally Posted by JayC

You wrestle to put points on the board. Period. If I'm coaching a kid that can take someone down at will but he is only up 2-0 after one period, I'm not a happy coach. Match strategy and situation will dictate what needs to be done but make no mistake, as coaches, wrestlers, fans, we want to see points being scored. I agree that all 3 positions need to be given equal attention while we are developing athletes but you need to look at the match in its entirety. There is a time to go on your feet, a time to ride, and its always time to get out from bottom. My point is that nobody should have to settle for lower scoring matches so we can work on our "perceived" weekness in the 2 mat positions.

This is your quote that I have issues with. If you have a kid who can take a man down at will, you won't have a very "entertaining" match. I for one, don't get any thrill out of seeing someone tech falled. Taking a man down and cutting him gives you no advantage unless you are able to take him down again in the same period and ride him out or take him down three times. 2-0 is no different than 4-2. You say "you wrestle to put points on the board. Period.". I say "You wrestle to win.".

If your kids are losing a lot of 10-9 matches, you've got a problem. The sport is not just about scoring points, it's also about not giving up points.

[JayC]

Originally Posted by Greenskin

This is your quote that I have issues with. If you have a kid who can take a man down at will, you won't have a very "entertaining" match. I for one, don't get any thrill out of seeing someone tech falled. Taking a man down and cutting him gives you no advantage unless you are able to take him down again in the same period and ride him out or take him down three times. 2-0 is no different than 4-2. You say "you wrestle to put points on the board. Period.". I say "You wrestle to win.".

If your kids are losing a lot of 10-9 matches, you've got a problem. The sport is not just about scoring points, it's also about not giving up points.

Maybe I should have stated it in a different way... I want my guys always looking to build their lead. If my wrestler lets someone up and doesn't get another takedown before the end of the period, I'm not going to be a happy coach. I'm mad as a coach when my wrestler gives up an escape at the end of a period. I will be even more furious if my wrestler has a 3-2 lead and has 3 or 4 opportunities to score and extend his lead that he doesn't go after because he's up by one and has "done enough to win" only to be scored on in the last second. That is unacceptable. And coinsidently, its no fun to watch either. It's not "getting after it". It's not what this sport is about.

I know first hand, at all levels, that it is harder to teach someone to put it all out there than it is to teach someone position and how to shut someone's offense down. That's why I'll take the kid that leaves it all out there and loses 10-11, or whatever the score may be. They are wrestling to win. Its easier to teach someone how to not give up 11 points than it is to teach someone to score 11. If that makes any sense.

[Greenskin]

Originally Posted by JayC

Maybe I should have stated it in a different way... I want my guys always looking to build their lead. If my wrestler lets someone up and doesn't get another takedown before the end of the period, I'm not going to be a happy coach. I'm mad as a coach when my wrestler gives up an escape at the end of a period. I will be even more furious if my wrestler has a 3-2 lead and has 3 or 4 opportunities to score and extend his lead that he doesn't go after because he's up by one and has "done enough to win" only to be scored on in the last second. That is unacceptable. And coinsidently, its no fun to watch either. It's not "getting after it". It's not what this sport is about.

I know first hand, at all levels, that it is harder to teach someone to put it all out there than it is to teach someone position and how to shut someone's offense down. That's why I'll take the kid that leaves it all out there and loses 10-11, or whatever the score may be. They are wrestling to win. Its easier to teach someone how to not give up 11 points than it is to teach someone to score 11. If that makes any sense.

No problem here. I thought maybe it was just a mistatement. I want my kids to be able to score as well. I like aggressive wrestlers. I also like smart wrestlers. I agree with you that it is easier to teach someone how to shut down someone's offense. That is why I would be much more upset at a 11-10 loss than a 3-2 loss. Just a slight difference in philosophy.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by advocate

Tilt, remember your discussing events that occurred about 12 years ago.

Apparently there was some uncertainty about where Izzy would end up in college as a high school senior, but now 12 years later there is no uncertainty. He went to Northern Idaho and won a National Championship, that's history. Nowhere in the ancient article you dug up did anyone ever mention Harper (just you) and we know he didn't go to Lassen, well most of us do.

You really can't read! The article did mention Harper and the fact that his brother went there. This coupled with the fact that his dad Jose, thought he may join his brother at Harper it was an understandable mistake that I forgot he went to N Idaho instead of Harper.

But, I have already said I made a mistake and said Harper when he went to N Idaho.....please dwell on that some more....please take shots at me that I am soooo ignorant.

Again, I didn't see where you answered my question about when we will see your kid in an Illinois singlet?

All year you have been coming on an Illinois board and talking about how great PA schools are. All year when I bring up great Illinois heavies you show up and talk about your kid and his national ranking. As if, you were on a crusade to discount the talent of our heavyweight division this year because you decided your son should wrestle in greener pastuers. And when anybody questions your motives about why you are on this board and taking shots at OT and Brill.....your response is always the same.....your an Illinois guy and your kid will be representing Illinois so you are entitled to take shots at Illinois guys.

So please share when your son will wrestle in an Illinois singlet?You weren't lying all along? You aren't just trying to hype your kid and pretend that you are really an Illinois guy? You weren't trying to legitamize your dislike of OT and Brill by pretending to be an Illini?

Maybe I figured you out a bit earlier than some others. But I dare you to keep coming on here and making fun of OT and taking shots at Brill, a hard working kid that just happens to know that he wants to attend an Illinois college. And keep bragging about how good PA is and see if other people don't figure you out and start to call you out.

[JoeyBee]

Originally Posted by tilt

You really can't read! The article did mention Harper and the fact that his brother went there. This coupled with the fact that his dad Jose, thought he may join his brother at Harper it was an understandable mistake that I forgot he went to N Idaho instead of Harper.

But, I have already said I made a mistake and said Harper when he went to N Idaho.....please dwell on that some more....please take shots at me that I am soooo ignorant.

Tilt, you werent THAT wrong...... He DID wrestle for Harper. Look at 184.

http://www.thepredicament.com/rankings/njcaa021605.asp
http://www.thepredicament.com/fa/art...natpreview.asp

I believe he actually qualified for nationals, but did not compete at the national tourney.


By the way....I just read this entire thread.... Quite entertaining. Considering, I have had a much closer veiw on most of the discussion. You guys missed the nail on some stuff, but its ok. People like to talk. That's just life I guess.

Have a good day guys.

[advocate]

Tilt, it's pretty simple ... Michael is an IL kid, he can only represent IL.