Oklahoma State, IL recruiting

[advocate]

Originally Posted by James_Oliva

... sure Stephen Robertson is still young, but UPenn isn't exactly a wrestling powerhouse.

Although the EIWA isn't the Big Ten they do have very good wrestling. With the exception of Cornell and Lehigh the teams are not as strong but have done a very good job supporting individual talent.

Steve qualified for the NCAA's as a true freshman while handling the academic load of an Ivy League school, an outstanding accomplishment!

Originally Posted by larry b

... Lastly since you seem to want to be on a first name basis and you know mine, sure would be nice to know yours!

It's always nice to be able to connect a name to a face.

[Formerwrestler]

Yeah, thats a lot of the prob, I believe were all having a different conversation if the two of these guys had full d1 careers at Okie State without obstacles.

[Danny Burk]

Originally Posted by James_Oliva

Tyler was a great kid. I wish things worked out better for him at NIU.

Definitely. Was a great kid and a hard worker as well.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by larry b

No not insecure or really all that sensetive.I enjoy these boards but do get tired of people coming on here bashing kids or programs under the idea they have some inside info or they are self proclaimed experts. You are turning from talking about apples to oranges.You use specific examples like you have some expert info on recruiting that went on back with Rock and I respond with the correct info and you get upset ,who is sensetive.You use a wrestler as an example of someone who worked hard on mat wrestling ,which i am sure he worked hard on everything, I point out he was known more for his take downs than mat wrestling. Do not think anyone would dispute Martinez wrestlers ,at least in the past ,were known for thier prowess on there feet. I say each wretler choose his style you say no its Izzy style .You blame the coaching for no college sucess and Izzy, I say Izzy only been head coah for 2 years. College sucess needs lots of things to line up and so far that has not happened for Montini alum. Never stated that Jose did not have an influnce on Montini wrestling as my kids wrestled for him and I know he had an influence on them.Lastly since you seem to want to be on a first name basis and you know mine sure would be nice to know yours

.....start with taking a breathe between your points.

I could care less about all the spelling mistakes because I know your meaning. But please seperate different thoughts with a new paragraph. Otherwise its impossible to follow your thoughts and respond.Thank you.

I'm not sure where to go with this discussion, Larry? I call you Larry because THATS YOUR SCREENNAME. Kinda like people call Mr Twister ....Twist....or Jaguar ......Jag. Make sense? Would you rather I call you Joe?

Maybe you and Cubs would rather I made the argument that Montini wrestlers are waaaay over rated and in an inferior class AA and none of them ever had the potential to contribute to the # of Illinois college AAs? They suck and none of us should get our hopes up that they would do well in college. Would that be a better argument for you?

Or maybe I should just agree with you that Montini and Martinez is known for their mat wrestling instead of on the feet wrestling? Are you now happy?

Because its obvious that you are incapable of accepting that our best wrestling school and one of our top 5 wrestling coaches is big on a style of wrestling that just doesn't play as well on the college stage. Don't accept what I'm saying. Don't accept that Montini could have even the slightest flaw in their system.....and lets just see if this same subject doesn't come up again year after year when the alum from our best wrestling school continue to not produce any AAs. Brilliant Larry. Oh I'm sorry I called you the name you use as your actual screen name.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by advocate

Although the EIWA isn't the Big Ten they do have very good wrestling. With the exception of Cornell and Lehigh the teams are not as strong but have done a very good job supporting individual talent.

Steve qualified for the NCAA's as a true freshman while handling the academic load of an Ivy League school, an outstanding accomplishment!

It's always nice to be able to connect a name to a face.

Yep I'm guilty. I called a guy whos screen name is LarryB.......Larry. My bad.

Advocate, you have been saying throughout the year that your son will be representing Illinois throughout the off season.....I'd like to check out a match.....will he be at Illinois Freestyle State?

[tilt]

Originally Posted by larry b

Yes Eric could ride in college. By the way even thogh he did not AA think Conor was better on the mat than his feet at the end of his college career. Very few HS wrestlers are ready for mat wrestling at the D1 level. Thats why they have college coachs or other experts.

Some states and some coaches go out of there way to prepare their hs wrestlers for college.So freshman year they are ready to go. Watch the the brothers from Ohio St......both freshmen and very comfortable in big time matches riding and escaping.

Watch this match of Beebe beating Precin on his feet. Beebe puts on a takedown clinic. Even when he knows he has him beat he keeps cutting. Theres really not a chance for a major or tech but at the same time there is no effort to turn or ride. So its a 4 point win with lots of TDs. But also notice that Precin does try to ride and the turn even though hes losing and needs points.

www.flowrestling.org/video/43340

Then watch this match of Precin beating Sentes who took Beebes spot at 125 for CMU. Notice that Precin is again working at riding and turning and because he has been doing it at big time matches for years is alot better at it and beats a very solid wrestler.


www.flowrestling.org/video/108486

Sorry Larry, no disrespect to Conor because he was an awesome wrestler and I do think he had a solid college career but.....I do think if there was more of an emphasis at Montini to ride and turn and mat wrestle I think Conor and several others would have been ready to go faster in college and probably AAd. Just my opinion. Not bashing .Just observing. Thats all.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by tilt

Some states and some coaches go out of there way to prepare their hs wrestlers for college.So freshman year they are ready to go. Watch the the brothers from Ohio St......both freshmen and very comfortable in big time matches riding and escaping.

Watch this match of Beebe beating Precin on his feet. Beebe puts on a takedown clinic. Even when he knows he has him beat he keeps cutting. Theres really not a chance for a major or tech but at the same time there is no effort to turn or ride. So its a 4 point win with lots of TDs. But also notice that Precin does try to ride and the turn even though hes losing and needs points.

www.flowrestling.org/video/43340

Then watch this match of Precin beating Sentes who took Beebes spot at 125 for CMU. Notice that Precin is again working at riding and turning and because he has been doing it at big time matches for years is alot better at it and beats a very solid wrestler.


www.flowrestling.org/video/108486

Sorry Larry, no disrespect to Conor because he was an awesome wrestler and I do think he had a solid college career but.....I do think if there was more of an emphasis at Montini to ride and turn and mat wrestle I think Conor and several others would have been ready to go faster in college and probably AAd. Just my opinion. Not bashing .Just observing. Thats all.

Tilt, you and I agree on many things, but for all you know Larry could have been the guy who took the video that you put up as an example. Sometimes the personal digs get in the way of what you are saying. What you are saying becomes hard to hear. For what it is worth, it seems to me that Connor attempted to ride Precin, at least early on. I didn't watch the whole thing. Maybe you should do directly what you seem to be attempting to address indirectly, and have a face to face with Izzy. The takedown and let up style has been the predominant style in Illinois, and certainly Jose and Izzy are champions of that style. Kids do what they are taught. You can't blame them. It is certainly a fun style of wrestling to watch, and it translates well into the international styles - all good things. It just doesn't translate as well to college. I think we get that, and I agree. It doesn't have to be personal.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Tilt, you and I agree on many things, but for all you know Larry could have been the guy who took the video that you put up as an example. Sometimes the personal digs get in the way of what you are saying. What you are saying becomes hard to hear. For what it is worth, it seems to me that Connor attempted to ride Precin, at least early on. I didn't watch the whole thing. Maybe you should do directly what you seem to be attempting to address indirectly, and have a face to face with Izzy. The takedown and let up style has been the predominant style in Illinois, and certainly Jose and Izzy are champions of that style. Kids do what they are taught. You can't blame them. It is certainly a fun style of wrestling to watch, and it translates well into the international styles - all good things. It just doesn't translate as well to college. I think we get that, and I agree. It doesn't have to be personal.

Who shot the video is irrelevant. The video is a great example of a Montini TD clinic with no efforts to ride or turn.

There was no real riding. There was 10 seconds left in the period and simply not enough time to TD and let up.

Yes we are agreed that this is what they are taught and what they do. Actually Larry disagrees with YOU on this subject. If you read the entire thread he clearly states that the kids employ their OWN style and its not the coaches fault.

I have talked to Izzy and Jose. Their credentials speak for themselves. Vastly superior to mine. You suggesting I can change a style they like is....well, silly because we both know it ain't happening. Maybe parents of their wrestlers can affect...or maybe its wise that Montini parents supplement Izzy Style with some influence from other coaches if they want their kids college ready immediately.

And as you know I love watching good takedown wrestlers....but that doesn't change my opinion of what needs to be done for Illinois to produce more college AAs.But heres a question for you Jaguar.....how many of our 15+ nationally ranked international wrestlers are from Montini?

If Larry takes it as an insult that I think Montini is the best HS wrestling program in our state and his boys were some of the finest wrestlers ever produced, but the one chink in the armour is emphasis on a particular aspect of wrestling that doesn't translate well to college......well accept my apology because there is nothing personal intended.

[wrestlersdad]

Originally Posted by tilt

Who shot the video is irrelevant. The video is a great example of a Montini TD clinic with no efforts to ride or turn.

There was no real riding. There was 10 seconds left in the period and simply not enough time to TD and let up.

Yes we are agreed that this is what they are taught and what they do. Actually Larry disagrees with YOU on this subject. If you read the entire thread he clearly states that the kids employ their OWN style and its not the coaches fault.

I have talked to Izzy and Jose. Their credentials speak for themselves. Vastly superior to mine. You suggesting I can change a style they like is....well, silly because we both know it ain't happening. Maybe parents of their wrestlers can affect...or maybe its wise that Montini parents supplement Izzy Style with some influence from other coaches if they want their kids college ready immediately.

And as you know I love watching good takedown wrestlers....but that doesn't change my opinion of what needs to be done for Illinois to produce more college AAs.But heres a question for you Jaguar.....how many of our 15+ nationally ranked international wrestlers are from Montini?

If Larry takes it as an insult that I think Montini is the best HS wrestling program in our state and his boys were some of the finest wrestlers ever produced, but the one chink in the armour is emphasis on a particular aspect of wrestling that doesn't translate well to college......well accept my apology because there is nothing personal intended.

Always....always seek out other coaches and coaching philosophies and styles...no one coach has all the answers...always take a little from each of the coaches and styles....do freestyle....greco.....judo if you have the time.....well rounded is the key....at least it helped my son....

[MR TWISTER]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Tilt, you and I agree on many things, but for all you know Larry could have been the guy who took the video that you put up as an example. Sometimes the personal digs get in the way of what you are saying. What you are saying becomes hard to hear. For what it is worth, it seems to me that Connor attempted to ride Precin, at least early on. I didn't watch the whole thing. Maybe you should do directly what you seem to be attempting to address indirectly, and have a face to face with Izzy. The takedown and let up style has been the predominant style in Illinois, and certainly Jose and Izzy are champions of that style. Kids do what they are taught. You can't blame them. It is certainly a fun style of wrestling to watch, and it translates well into the international styles - all good things. It just doesn't translate as well to college. I think we get that, and I agree. It doesn't have to be personal.

I disagree slightly. Now because I worked with him so closely I must refer to my own son. I know first hand the initial frustration when he lost 19 matches his freshman year yet usually had 5 takedowns in the match and would lose to a riding point. I know firsthand what it was like to watch him get rode for 6:00 in the NCAA tournament AA by the evential champ because he could not get off the bottom. That simple thing was the difference between being a 4x AA and a 3x AA.

Some lessons are hard learned but they must be learned.

You can do takedowns/let 'em up as long as when it is time to ride you can ride and when it is time to get off the bottom you can get off the bottom. I don't think Mario abandoned his take 'em down style that he learned with the Twisters. When he needed a takedown to win (as he often did) he was able to get it. This is an area that I am glad he had in his back pocket. And one of the great things about his coach, he never subtracted from his style, he got his wrestler to add what he needed. It is hard to learn to ride in hs because the elite guys don't have to ride to win nor do they get points for riding. Now if the rules were the same as college that would be a different thing. At this point the difference in the rules hurt our hs wrestlers, especially our elite guys.

What Mario did do was he came to the realization that he must in close matches be able to ride or get out. Most college matches are close so getting 5 takedowns don't mean didly cause the other guy can also get 5 and a riding point. Then what do you do - the match is over. I think kids from Illinois sometimes refuse to adapt to these two areas and stubbornly continue to just try to do takedowns.

Just my observations....everyone in this thread breath...