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  • If all gun owners were like mckbln there would not be a problem. A minimum amount of training and insurance should be required. You can get a free gun with a mattress purchase. Illinois needs to go after Indiana in a more aggressive way for gun dumping. We have already accepted the violence, its going to stay like it is or get worse. We are used to it.
    There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Crystal Clearly View Post
      Does anyone not see the correlation between the (steadily increasing) loosening of gun laws through the last 15-20 years and the exponential increase in gun violence, specifically mass shootings?

      Are you gun nuts really going to say that it is a coincidence?

      I am not against guns.
      I am not against people owning guns.
      I am not against concealed carry.
      I am a gun owner.

      I AM against ANYONE being able to get a gun.
      I AM against ANYONE being able to get a gun without a REAL background check.
      I AM against ANYONE being able to get a gun at a gun show without ANY (or any REAL) background check.
      I AM against the gun lobby killing ANY bill or proposal, involving background checks or red flag laws etc., that is brought forth, by ANY politician after an act of gun violence or mass shooting.
      I AM against the gun lobby buying politicians who loosen the gun laws to the point where ANYONE can buy a half-made rifle and assemble it themselves, without ANY checks, ANY evaluation of their mental state, ANY evaluation of their criminal history or ANY REAL record of that purchase.

      Guns are a REAL threat - yes, the criminals and gangs have them - yes, they will always get their guns illegally - no, they will not turn them in if there were any kind of "buyback" (there never will be) - but the threat with guns is not (necessarily) the guns themselves, it is the person who values profit over safety, money over civility, it is the person who legally buys guns then sells them, be it across the country, where gun laws may be loosest or at the gun show, where there is no real record of the transaction. The "dealer" or half-made-receiver "manufacturer" who justifies his lack of conscience saying 'I cannot control what the gun does after I sell it'. Those people, and the politicians, are the threat because they value personal wealth over public health.

      Mack will come on spinning his yarns about how guns have saved him, or someone he knows, Mal will come on with a few links to stories about how a good guy with a gun stopped a mass shooting or a robber and that is great, those are good stories, that is what concealed carry is supposed to do.
      But you cannot argue that the number of instances of gun violence and, specifically mass shootings have not gone up exponentially with the progressive loosening (or elimination) of gun laws across the country.

      You cannot argue that the loosening of gun laws has made this country safer.
      You cannot argue that more guns are making us safer.
      You cannot argue that someone manufacturing a half-made gun for sale to ANYONE with a drill to "finish" the manufacturing process, regardless of their mental state is a good thing.
      You cannot argue that the gun lobby is concerned about public saftey.
      You cannot argue that the gun lobby is not concerned about their profits.

      This is not a 2nd Amendment argument.
      Both sides read that the way they want to see it and interpret the words, and phrases, and commas as they see fit to help their position and reinforce their point.

      I am not against guns.
      I am a gun owner.
      I can argue just about everything you said, and I already have many times.

      When you eat too much do you blame the spoon?

      I am no behavioral scientist, but I am going to play one on Illinois Matmen. There are things that we can do as a society that affect human behavior. We issue speeding tickets keep most people within a reasonable speed. We put up cameras to keep most people from committing crime. We tax the hell out of cigarettes to get people to quit...but some people still do those things. If we wanted to get more people to stop doing those things we could double the fine for speeding...put up more cameras...raise the tax on cigarettes.

      Now the question is what could we do to reduce gun crime that will mostly just affect the gun criminals themselves? Stop and frisk...camera on every corner...death penalty...GPS monitoring...structure welfare so the father is back in the home...teach the concept of heaven and hell. There is something that will work for each individual, but it is not the same answer for everybody. The solution is to focus on the criminal, not the gun.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MAL View Post
        I can argue just about everything you said, and I already have many times.

        When you eat too much do you blame the spoon?

        I am no behavioral scientist, but I am going to play one on Illinois Matmen. There are things that we can do as a society that affect human behavior. We issue speeding tickets keep most people within a reasonable speed. We put up cameras to keep most people from committing crime. We tax the hell out of cigarettes to get people to quit...but some people still do those things. If we wanted to get more people to stop doing those things we could double the fine for speeding...put up more cameras...raise the tax on cigarettes.

        Now the question is what could we do to reduce gun crime that will mostly just affect the gun criminals themselves? Stop and frisk...camera on every corner...death penalty...GPS monitoring...structure welfare so the father is back in the home...teach the concept of heaven and hell. There is something that will work for each individual, but it is not the same answer for everybody. The solution is to focus on the criminal, not the gun.
        Why experiment? Just do what works elsewhere. The US is only the 15th on the list of countries that hunt, these other countries have figured it out. Or lean into it and lets get really crazy, we are on our way. Lots of stampedes this year when a car backfires etc. We simply like to shoot each other and accept mass shootings for the price of freedom. Get used to it. This BS that we have to cure all mental illness to fix the gun problem is a bad joke. Making the current gun owners go get the guns from the people they know have them and shouldn't would be a start. Like the Aurora IL shooter this year.
        There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Blonjuan44 View Post
          Why experiment? Just do what works elsewhere. The US is only the 15th on the list of countries that hunt, these other countries have figured it out. Or lean into it and lets get really crazy, we are on our way. Lots of stampedes this year when a car backfires etc. We simply like to shoot each other and accept mass shootings for the price of freedom. Get used to it. This BS that we have to cure all mental illness to fix the gun problem is a bad joke. Making the current gun owners go get the guns from the people they know have them and shouldn't would be a start. Like the Aurora IL shooter this year.
          Hunting is not a constitutionally protected right...they could legally ban hunting. Gun ownership is protected by the constitution. So shut up about hunting the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

          The rest of the world has more violent crime that the US does. I did not even mention mental illness...you don't have to cure mental illness if you can affect the behavior of the mentally ill. Even a mentally ill person knows not to touch a hot stove because it hurts. Violent crime should be like a hot stove that should never be touched...there are rules that can basically achieve that goal. I only mentioned proven solutions that have worked in the past and present.

          Why will you never tell us what you claim has worked in the rest of the world?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MAL View Post
            Hunting is not a constitutionally protected right...they could legally ban hunting. Gun ownership is protected by the constitution. So shut up about hunting the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

            The rest of the world has more violent crime that the US does. I did not even mention mental illness...you don't have to cure mental illness if you can affect the behavior of the mentally ill. Even a mentally ill person knows not to touch a hot stove because it hurts. Violent crime should be like a hot stove that should never be touched...there are rules that can basically achieve that goal. I only mentioned proven solutions that have worked in the past and present.

            Why will you never tell us what you claim has worked in the rest of the world?
            Where's your proof? Just more nonsense and outright lies, you're a clown

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MAL View Post
              Hunting is not a constitutionally protected right...they could legally ban hunting. Gun ownership is protected by the constitution. So shut up about hunting the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

              The rest of the world has more violent crime that the US does. I did not even mention mental illness...you don't have to cure mental illness if you can affect the behavior of the mentally ill. Even a mentally ill person knows not to touch a hot stove because it hurts. Violent crime should be like a hot stove that should never be touched...there are rules that can basically achieve that goal. I only mentioned proven solutions that have worked in the past and present.

              Why will you never tell us what you claim has worked in the rest of the world?
              I don't see why you complain so much, everybody has their guns, lots of violence, not changing anytime soon - so why the complaining, lying, and defensiveness?

              Hunting is a bs issue the NRA hides behind so it is part of the conversation. Also the type of gun is not protected by the constitution, so be careful going down that road. If you cherry pick little and 3rd world nations there are more violent countries, but as far as developed countries go nobody comes close to our bloodbath. By the way, I just got back from Brazil, rough place - but we have a ton more street people in Chicago than cities in Brazil, that is pretty bad.

              If everybody carried a gun, it would be an even bigger bloodbath from all the accidental shootings. I am leaning towards getting more gun crazy, it needs to get worse before it will get better. We are used to it - we are entering the Holiday shooting period - families getting mad at each other because they have to see other. Only worse season is the school graduation and spring break-up seasons.

              lame comparisons
              https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...t-of-the-world

              better comparisons
              https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts
              There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Blonjuan44 View Post
                we are entering the Holiday shooting period - families getting mad at each other because they have to see other. Only worse season is the school graduation and spring break-up seasons.

                lame comparisons
                https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...t-of-the-world

                better comparisons
                https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts
                not too hard, but predicted that one 1 day before - 13 shot at party on South side today in 1 incident alone. That is about 20 blocks of the Sox' Park. Its going to be a bloody holiday season nationwide. My prediction of what started it - somebody calling somebody stupid, that is all it takes for a mass shooting in the US. Difference between that and other countries - more guns than people here. Its not wrong that there are many guns here, but we need to accept this as an unwanted side-effect. Love it or leave it. Next prediction, next one will be in NC - that place is the mass shooting capital of the us.
                Last edited by Blonjuan44; 12-22-2019, 04:34 PM.
                There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by HuffHall View Post
                  Where's your proof? Just more nonsense and outright lies, you're a clown
                  Everybody loves a clown.

                  In 2017 the global average for the intentional homicide rate was 6.1 per 100,000. In the Unites States it was 5.3 per 100,000

                  If you were more involved in the conversation I would give you more statistics like that one that prove the rest of the world has more violent crime than the US does.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MAL View Post
                    Everybody loves a clown.

                    In 2017 the global average for the intentional homicide rate was 6.1 per 100,000. In the Unites States it was 5.3 per 100,000

                    If you were more involved in the conversation I would give you more statistics like that one that prove the rest of the world has more violent crime than the US does.
                    It was clarified in my post for them. Yes, if you compare us to Yemen and El Salvador - not that bad. But that is not what they meant. Their argument was the common sense comparison - If you compare us to other first world countries our gun violence is off the charts in comparison. You are the worst with fact, so you can criticize anyone else. You are best known for copy and pasting 5 pages of non-sense that is so long nobody would read it. And how you’ve been there and done that, but don’t remember what that was. How does your uni-bomber shack get internet? Satellite?
                    There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blonjuan44 View Post
                      It was clarified in my post for them. Yes, if you compare us to Yemen and El Salvador - not that bad. But that is not what they meant. Their argument was the common sense comparison - If you compare us to other first world countries our gun violence is off the charts in comparison. You are the worst with fact, so you can criticize anyone else. You are best known for copy and pasting 5 pages of non-sense that is so long nobody would read it. And how you’ve been there and done that, but don’t remember what that was. How does your uni-bomber shack get internet? Satellite?
                      You are cherry picking gun violence and disregarding all other violent crime. The case could easily be made that we have less violent crime because we have guns, but we have more gun crime because we have guns. I tried to find stats on all of Europe, but for now all I found was this on the UK.

                      "With gun restrictions making it harder to obtain private weapons in the UK, violent crimes involving guns have greatly decreased. The number of total violent crimes, however, is almost double that of the US. Of those crimes, only 19% even involve a weapon, and only 5% of those involve a firearm. That means that of you’re roughly 1/100 chance of being involved in a violent crime in Britain and Wales in any given year, you have roughly a 1/10,000 chance of being in a violent crime involving a gun.

                      Alternately, in the US your chances of being involved in a violent crime are less than 1/250. Of those involved with violent crimes, however, you have greater than a 1/10,000 chance of being involved in a violent crime involving a gun. In a country with less than half the violent crime, you have a greater chance of being the victim of a violent crime involving a gun.

                      Here’s where gun control advocates would say that the proliferation of easily available and private firearms enable gun crimes. This is also where gun rights advocates would point to the much lower violent crime rate in a similarly governed and wealthy nation. In a way, they’re both right. Much as the US is both in line with other developed nations on violent crime, and an outlier–with several cities more dangerous than anywhere in Europe or Asia–violent crime in America is as sprawling as the opportunities to commit crime."


                      https://www.criminaljusticedegreehub...ime-us-abroad/

                      Comment


                      • Here it is, I haven't read all of it yet, but this compares mass shootings In Europe VS US.

                        https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/co...-in-frequency/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MAL View Post
                          Here it is, I haven't read all of it yet, but this compares mass shootings In Europe VS US.

                          https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/co...-in-frequency/
                          That data stopped at 2015, and started right after the shooting in Norway in 2011. Total Cherry Picking data of a data span - why don't go find some data during world war II and that will say say shootings were worse in Europe also. I would suggest going to the NRA sight and they will do the same thing but if you go to their site you will get constant NRA ads on your computer, phone etc. They are the most aggressive online internet marketer there is.
                          Last edited by Blonjuan44; 12-27-2019, 11:38 PM.
                          There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

                          Comment


                          • Got another individual for firearm training! A former OPRF wrestler at that, Mike Ordonez, purchased a Glock 17 and wants to learn how to shoot properly!! Joined the US Army, 11X, DEP in July. Another win!!
                            sigpic


                            "On the bloody morning after, one tin soldier rides away..."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Blonjuan44 View Post
                              That data stopped at 2015, and started right after the shooting in Norway in 2011. Total Cherry Picking data of a data span - why don't go find some data during world war II and that will say say shootings were worse in Europe also. I would suggest going to the NRA sight and they will do the same thing but if you go to their site you will get constant NRA ads on your computer, phone etc. They are the most aggressive online internet marketer there is.
                              We were having this exact same argument in 2015 and the raw data proved that the rhetoric was wrong then and it's wrong now. There was nothing cherry picked about that story. It was debunking with actual statistics, a false statement that was made by Obama. The crime rate has been going down since then so I wouldn't expect to see significant statistical changes. Gun ownership has been going up during this same time frame and continues to go up as we speak. We have more guns and we have less crime. Second amendment advocates predicted that outcome decades ago...now that it has happened, gun grabbers still wont accept it as fact.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MAL View Post
                                We were having this exact same argument in 2015 and the raw data proved that the rhetoric was wrong then and it's wrong now. There was nothing cherry picked about that story. It was debunking with actual statistics, a false statement that was made by Obama. The crime rate has been going down since then so I wouldn't expect to see significant statistical changes. Gun ownership has been going up during this same time frame and continues to go up as we speak. We have more guns and we have less crime. Second amendment advocates predicted that outcome decades ago...now that it has happened, gun grabbers still wont accept it as fact.
                                https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/u...tatistics.html

                                You always just make stuff up. True - America is relatively safe, and the trend is toward becoming safer. But crime goes down in countries with tight gun controls also. And the mass shooting can increase within an overall downward murder trend, that really doesn't help you if you are shot. The only statistical link between legal gun ownership and shootings, is the more spouses end up shot. You are an expert, go stop the illegal gun sales.

                                You are saying gun violence and mass shootings are not a problem, and that the United States is not statistically worse than other first world countries. So I wonder why the news even covers such typical events?

                                ...at the Route 91 Harvest Country music festival on the Las Vegas Strip in Nevada. 1 gunman killed 58 people and wounded 413, with the ensuing panic bringing the injury total to 869. - Just one of many now common events.

                                according to you, that is a sign things are getting better.

                                I don't have a problem with guns, but I don't share you view on the direction of the issue. We need gun experts like you to solve the problem since you are such experts. We generally just hear we need to fix all mental illness - that will never happen. The arrow appears to be indicating mass shooting is going up, within murder going down. What happened in Aurora IL this year was worse in some ways - the guy was a felon that applied for a concealed carry permit - come on, that is how little laws are enforced.
                                Last edited by Blonjuan44; 12-28-2019, 10:54 AM.
                                There are two guys in that zebra costume! Very funny...

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