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Sectional Breakdown...LincolnWay Central

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  • #31
    The way to make it more fair would be to set up the qualifiers the way that the NCAA does.
    Do it according to percentages, the more State Placers that come out of a sectional, the more qualifiers you get. Reallicate every year or every other year, whatever it is that the NCAA does. Simply follow their system. PA used to do it and to my knowledge they still do. It works great for the NCAA. Imagine if the Big 10 got the same number of wrestlers to NCAA's that the PAC 10 gets. I wonder how many people would call that fair.

    I am so sick of hearing the argument that no matter the sectionals the best wrester will be on top of the podium. You mean to say that 2 through 6 don't matter? Number 1 might be up there but the way things currently are set up there is no guarantee that 2-6 belong there.

    I know, I know equal opportunity for all regionals and sectionals. I am curious to see if the southern schools that everyone speaks of would get better representation, quality representation if they qualified just their top 2 to state. Maybe their image would change. They may not have the large number of quality wrestlers down south but they still have quality wrestlers down there. I would prefer to see the focus be put on the quality that does come out of there than have the focus on the weakness that comes out of there.

    I would love to know the break down from the "weak" sectionals from last year and previous years as to how many of those kids got to the placing rounds.

    So many threads and arguments as to where IL falls on the National Level as far as being the toughest state. No one will ever know, we hide our depth at the Regional and Sectional level rather than putting it on display at the State Tournament as it should be.

    Where do college recruiters go? Should they go to one of the Sectionals or should they go to the State Tournament? Sounds to me like they might be better off going to one or two of the Sectionals. And then who loses? Every wrestler, the wrestlers from the other sectionals that deserved to be looked at but didn't because the recruiters had to go where the "big" names are.

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    • #32
      Recruiters know who they are looking at LONG before state....

      and as far as #2-6 not being representative.....the top 4 sectional wrestlers can finish top 4 in state.....so basically all this worry is over someone who wont get a chance to finish 5th in state? (Even though there isnt a case of the top 5 wrestlers in a weight class being at the same sectional)

      And going just by the rankings..........I dont see any example of (if it all played out according to the rankings) where the #6 ranked wouldnt finish 6th in state....

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      • #33
        If the rankings are close to accurate, you will have 9 top twelve kids at LWC in 130 weight class. Let's also suppose the idea for our great state is put the top 24 kids together in Champagne. It cannot happen the things are set up. It truly is not fair for a top ten wrestler to not make it to state and take his rightful spot. Everyone says be the best, beat the best but the bottom line is once you get to state you are not facing the best. Now, the champion and maybe second or third could be accurate but the lower placings will only be paper champions because the field was watered down at sectionals. Don't mean to anger anyone but thats how I see it.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by oldwrestlingfan View Post
          If the rankings are close to accurate, you will have 9 top twelve kids at LWC in 130 weight class. Let's also suppose the idea for our great state is put the top 24 kids together in Champagne. It cannot happen the things are set up. It truly is not fair for a top ten wrestler to not make it to state and take his rightful spot. Everyone says be the best, beat the best but the bottom line is once you get to state you are not facing the best. Now, the champion and maybe second or third could be accurate but the lower placings will only be paper champions because the field was watered down at sectionals. Don't mean to anger anyone but thats how I see it.

          and the Chargers made the playoffs at 8-8 while the Patriots sat home with an 11-5 record......it happens in every sport...at every level.....there will always be tougher divisions....tougher conferences, tougher sectionals.....

          and who says the rankings are accurate? I saw a #11 wrestler destroy a #6 wrestler last night......there was no doubt who the better wrestler was.....

          there is absolutely nothing wrong with how they are doing it......you have found ONE weightclass in ONE sectional, where the (MAYBE) the 7th best wrestler in the state at his weightclass wont get a chance to go down state(oh wait.....he actually DOES have a chance)...

          so lets just throw the whole system out and come up with another one that will no doubt at least as many of these "injustices"...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by lemiwinks31 View Post
            Recruiters know who they are looking at LONG before state....
            While recruiters may have their top picks long before state, they are still looking come State time. Shoot, they are still looking at Fargo. They may not be looking for kids that they are going to give a full ride to, but they are most definitely looking. There might be certain wrestlers that draw the recruits but there are others that get recognized when they might not have before. The JUCOS are looking for the kids that chose not to go DI or could not. DII and DIII are still recruiting. Not to mention the fact that there are kids that are sophomores and juniors that may not get picked up on the radar of these schools if they don't make it out of their ridiculously tough sectional. I know that there are DI coaches asking who they should be looking at down state other then the big names.
            and as far as #2-6 not being representative.....the top 4 sectional wrestlers can finish top 4 in state.....so basically all this worry is over someone who wont get a chance to finish 5th in state? (Even though
            there isnt a case of the top 5 wrestlers in a weight class being at the same sectional)
            You are missing the point- those top four Sectional wrestlers may not be the top four wrestlers in the state. A few of those Sectional winners may be there because of the weakness of their sectional without having to beat the best.
            And although it is not 100% about that 5th or 6th place finish it is of concern. No one on here is saying that the rankings are the end all be all which is why the discussion is about how many ranked kids and HM are in weight classes not how many 1,2,3,4,5,'s are in one weight class. Let's also remember that the sectionals (to my knowledge) are not seeded, so you have no idea how the draws will end up.
            Of course the rankings are a hypothesis of the end result but in most cases most people on here would agree that 1-12 could beat each other on any given day. And everything you have said here is why I say they should use the NCAA system, let history prove the case. If history shows that all the sectionals produce the same number of placers then I would not argue the point.

            And going just by the rankings..........I dont see any example of (if it all played out according to the rankings) where the #6 ranked wouldnt finish 6th in state....
            You are making it very black and white. It is not. How about the level of competition and difficulty of tournament that kids are facing the week before state and the lack there of for others. Some allowance should be made. The alleged purpose behind all decisions and policies made is for equality and fairness, (holding in my laughter), there just is not equality across the sectionals. I have heard you basically say that the system is fine but you have not said why. What are the benefits to the fans? the wrestlers? the recruiters? the coaches?
            I am all for "Life sucks, wear a helmet", however if there is something that can be done, it should be done.

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            • #36
              so if they weight sectional like they do in the NCAAs........you will undoubtably run into the same problems.....

              say history tells you that the lincolnway sectional should get 6 wrestlers downstate the other 2 suburban sectionals get 4 and the chicago sectional gets 2. Weight to weight...ineveitably, you will run into problems...just one example at 145....

              the lincoln way sectional sends 6....they are ranked 3,6,8,10,11,12.....no problem..right....but wait.......#'s 1,2,4 & 9 are in the chicago sectional......so #4 & #9 dont go downstate because only the top 2 from chicago go....but #11 and #12 go because last year their sectional was tougher?

              like i said.....year to year, weightclass to weightclass, its going to vary and there will ALWAYS be some class in some sectional that is 'the toughest' no matter what system you use...

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              • #37
                I agree with the thought that every year weight class to weight class is different and that no system is perfect but percentage wise the NCAA system works. You want to do whats best for the majority and the current system is not best for the majority.

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                • #38
                  I remember my junior year of high school - over 25 years ago, I took 4th at sectionals. The first, second and third at my weight at my sectionals eventually took first, second and third at state - in that order. I was in the stands counting the kids I beat on the mat in Champaign. These sectional draws have been occrring for decades - quit complaining.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shark9191 View Post
                    I remember my junior year of high school - over 25 years ago, I took 4th at sectionals. The first, second and third at my weight at my sectionals eventually took first, second and third at state - in that order. I was in the stands counting the kids I beat on the mat in Champaign. These sectional draws have been occrring for decades - quit complaining.
                    I hate that thought process- It's been illogical and crappy for decades so let's leave it that way! Hey I got screwed 25 years ago so so should all of you. I know that there isn't a perfect way and some weight classes in some sectionals will always be ridiculous, but if there is a better way let's do it.
                    No one on here has said that this is the first year ir happened. What most people are saying is that historically Naperville North and one other sectional used to be a bear to get through they finally decide to change them and they don't try to use a system that makes a little more sense, wrestling wise.

                    IHSA is willing to separate the Chicago schools in basketball, they could at least have the courtesy of using something other than just geography for wrestling.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by cementjob View Post
                      I hate that thought process- It's been illogical and crappy for decades so let's leave it that way! Hey I got screwed 25 years ago so so should all of you. I know that there isn't a perfect way and some weight classes in some sectionals will always be ridiculous, but if there is a better way let's do it.
                      No one on here has said that this is the first year ir happened. What most people are saying is that historically Naperville North and one other sectional used to be a bear to get through they finally decide to change them and they don't try to use a system that makes a little more sense, wrestling wise.

                      IHSA is willing to separate the Chicago schools in basketball, they could at least have the courtesy of using something other than just geography for wrestling.
                      Think about it, it's easier to break up "teams". How are you going to break up "wrestling weight's" by team.

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                      • #41
                        I get that it is easier to break up teams. I am not asking for an analysis of every weight class and then break them up. I am asking for a process that benefits wrestling just as they have implemented a process that benefits basketball.
                        All I am saying is that if the sectionals are set up according to geography which it appears as though they are, keep the regionals and sectionals the way they are but use the placer percentage system that the NCAA uses.

                        The more placers you have out of your sectional, the more qualifiers you get. It would not be that hard. Other states do it. So could we. There would still be some weight classes in some sectionals that there are great kids that don't make it down but it levels the playing field a little bit.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lemiwinks31 View Post
                          and the Chargers made the playoffs at 8-8 while the Patriots sat home with an 11-5 record......it happens in every sport...at every level.....there will always be tougher divisions....tougher conferences, tougher sectionals.....

                          and who says the rankings are accurate? I saw a #11 wrestler destroy a #6 wrestler last night......there was no doubt who the better wrestler was.....

                          there is absolutely nothing wrong with how they are doing it......you have found ONE weightclass in ONE sectional, where the (MAYBE) the 7th best wrestler in the state at his weightclass wont get a chance to go down state(oh wait.....he actually DOES have a chance)...

                          so lets just throw the whole system out and come up with another one that will no doubt at least as many of these "injustices"...
                          Ya and they are actually having the same discussion in the NFL. Oh ya and I believe I stated that if, if the rankings are accurate, this is a topic of discussion not a bash or endorsement of anything. The disscusion was about LWC so maybe thats why we are talking about a certain sectional or weight class. That said, no matter your opnion or feelings the idea is to get the best kids to the state championship and under this system that doesn't all ways happen.

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                          • #43
                            They dont have to use geography

                            Lets face it if one sectional stretches from St. Louis to the southwest suburbs, to the Iowa border, to the Wisconsin border; then geography doesn't matter. I posted a month ago about this ridiculous sectional and got almost no reasonable feedback. If it looks , walks, and quacks like a duck...... The assumption that they couldn' swap Lockport with Bremen or HF with LWC or Providence is absured. I'm sure solutions near west and near north would work just as well and provide for a better individual as well as dual team championship.
                            Last edited by geo; 01-18-2009, 10:15 AM.

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