IHSA Blunder

[petersenkid2]

I tried to make my case to a few coaches at our regional last weekend and all of them said it will never happen in Illinois. That coaches would find a way not to do it or to do it incorrectly on purpose. I remember when I started with Matmen, no one thought we could get all of the tournament results each week but we have done that. Someday I hope we can say the same for dual results.

I know the coaches around here use software to keep track of the dual results and after entering them in the computer, one click also sends an email to the Northwest Herald who then publishes the results.

[ctdad]

To the Trackwrestling experts out there: If you use 16 Man Place 4 for every bracket, regardless of the number of wrestlers, would the scoring have been calculated correctly?

Not per the current IHSA guidelines, because you end up doubling the value of quarterfinal matches in 8 man brackets. Whether they should be is a different discussion.

[petersenkid2]

Not per the current IHSA guidelines, because you end up doubling the value of quarterfinal matches in 8 man brackets. Whether they should be is a different discussion.

Got it. I poked around and saw that brackets with < 5 wrestlers were set up as 4 Man Place 4. Simple error that they didn't set up the ones with > 8 wrestlers to be 16 Man Place 4. They seems that they used 10 Man instead, which calculated the scoring incorrectly.

[ILWrestle]

Long thread for the scoring geeks out there

To the Trackwrestling experts out there: If you use 16 Man Place 4 for every bracket, regardless of the number of wrestlers, would the scoring have been calculated correctly?

I am not a Track expert by any means, but learned a lot about how they create and score their brackets following a string of messages through their ticket system on Saturday.

Regional scoring had two errors... the obvious one where 9-man brackets were not scoring as a 16-man and quarterfinal winners were not getting their advancement and bonus points doubled. The other was less obvious, but occurred when using the 8-man WB-3rd for weight classes with only 6 wrestlers. When you have only 6, 2 wrestlers drop to the first round consolation where they end up with a bye, but advance automatically to the semi-final wrestleback. Track was doubling advancement and bonus points for those byes if they won the semi-final WB, which shouldn't occur since the number of total wrestlers in the consolation was only 4, which is a power of 2, and by NFHS and IHSA rules, there can be no byes.

The rules of scoring are simple if you understand the math principle behind them...

Rule 10-3.1) When the number of competitors is not a power of 2, that is 4, 8, 16, 32 and 64, there shall be byes in the first round. The number of byes shall be equal to the difference between the number of competitors and the next higher power of two. (In other words, brackets don't score based on which bracket format you choose, but based on the number wrestlers in that weight class. 9 wrestlers score as a 16, 7 wrestlers scores as an 8.)

Rule 10-3.2) There shall be no byes after the first round of competition in both the championship and consolation brackets, and no further drawing is necessary for championship or consolation rounds. (This 2nd rule is basically saying that the consolation will score the same as the championship side.)

Track scoring is based on how the bracket is initially constructed. If you choose a 16-man format, it scores as a 16. If you choose an 8-man format, it scores as an 8. That's why we had to choose specifically between three different bracket types based on the number of wrestlers that were entered in that weight class. The "10 Man WB-3rd Place 4" format was created specifically for the IHSA since that pigtail in the 9-man doesn't feed to the #1 seed as it should per NFHS rules, but instead feeds into the #3 seed...an IHSA requirement. That's why you couldn't choose a comparable 16-man format from their list...the pigtail and subsequent consolation pigtail wouldn't be correct. Track confirmed with me that they set up the 10 Man WB-3rd to score as an 8-man, not 16. The close Rock Island Regional from 2015 (last season) used this format and the scoring errors are still there. This problem is not new.

The beauty of the old PES Wrestling Tourney software that so many of us still use, but Track lovers hate, is that tournament scoring is rock solid. Scoring is programmed on the simple mathematical principle of the power of 2, not on how the bracket is drawn. Regardless of which bracket type you choose, the scoring will adjust accordingly (in both the championship and consolation) to the number of wrestlers entered in the weight class. I and the guys over at Deerfield ran our Regionals both ways...with Track and the Wrestling Tourney software. The Wrestling Tourney allows you to show right on the bracket how points are awarded and it was easy to find the discrepancies in the 3 weight classes with Track that ultimately determined the outcome at Deerfield.

Track became aware of the scoring problems last Saturday as early as 10:30 AM, as soon as the quarterfinal round was completed. They claimed to be working on it all day and even had me verify their fix. It didn't work and across the majority of the 48 Regionals conducted that day, you have scoring errors due to the two aforementioned problems with how Track scores...none of which however I could find ultimately changed the the top two places other than at Deerfield. At Lake Park for example, Track had the scores Prospect 196 to Conant's 189.5. The actual scores should have been Prospect 208, Conant 203. Track had the difference by 6.5 point. Actual difference was only 5. Had this been as close as Deerfield.... we'd have a different Regional champ.

[petersenkid2]

I am not a Track expert by any means, but learned a lot about how they create and score their brackets following a string of messages through their ticket system on Saturday.

Regional scoring had two errors... the obvious one where 9-man brackets were not scoring as a 16-man and quarterfinal winners were not getting their advancement and bonus points doubled. The other was less obvious, but occurred when using the 8-man WB-3rd for weight classes with only 6 wrestlers. When you have only 6, 2 wrestlers drop to the first round consolation where they end up with a bye, but advance automatically to the semi-final wrestleback. Track was doubling advancement and bonus points for those byes if they won the semi-final WB, which shouldn't occur since the number of total wrestlers in the consolation was only 4, which is a power of 2, and by NFHS and IHSA rules, there can be no byes.

The rules of scoring are simple if you understand the math principle behind them...

Rule 10-3.1) When the number of competitors is not a power of 2, that is 4, 8, 16, 32 and 64, there shall be byes in the first round. The number of byes shall be equal to the difference between the number of competitors and the next higher power of two. (In other words, brackets don't score based on which bracket format you choose, but based on the number wrestlers in that weight class. 9 wrestlers score as a 16, 7 wrestlers scores as an 8.)

Rule 10-3.2) There shall be no byes after the first round of competition in both the championship and consolation brackets, and no further drawing is necessary for championship or consolation rounds. (This 2nd rule is basically saying that the consolation will score the same as the championship side.)

Track scoring is based on how the bracket is initially constructed. If you choose a 16-man format, it scores as a 16. If you choose an 8-man format, it scores as an 8. That's why we had to choose specifically between three different bracket types based on the number of wrestlers that were entered in that weight class. The "10 Man WB-3rd Place 4" format was created specifically for the IHSA since that pigtail in the 9-man doesn't feed to the #1 seed as it should per NFHS rules, but instead feeds into the #3 seed...an IHSA requirement. That's why you couldn't choose a comparable 16-man format from their list...the pigtail and subsequent consolation pigtail wouldn't be correct. Track confirmed with me that they set up the 10 Man WB-3rd to score as an 8-man, not 16. The close Rock Island Regional from 2015 (last season) used this format and the scoring errors are still there. This problem is not new.

The beauty of the old PES Wrestling Tourney software that so many of us still use, but Track lovers hate, is that tournament scoring is rock solid. Scoring is programmed on the simple mathematical principle of the power of 2, not on how the bracket is drawn. Regardless of which bracket type you choose, the scoring will adjust accordingly (in both the championship and consolation) to the number of wrestlers entered in the weight class. I and the guys over at Deerfield ran our Regionals both ways...with Track and the Wrestling Tourney software. The Wrestling Tourney allows you to show right on the bracket how points are awarded and it was easy to find the discrepancies in the 3 weight classes with Track that ultimately determined the outcome at Deerfield.

Track became aware of the scoring problems last Saturday as early as 10:30 AM, as soon as the quarterfinal round was completed. They claimed to be working on it all day and even had me verify their fix. It didn't work and across the majority of the 48 Regionals conducted that day, you have scoring errors due to the two aforementioned problems with how Track scores...none of which however I could find ultimately changed the the top two places other than at Deerfield. At Lake Park for example, Track had the scores Prospect 196 to Conant's 189.5. The actual scores should have been Prospect 208, Conant 203. Track had the difference by 6.5 point. Actual difference was only 5. Had this been as close as Deerfield.... we'd have a different Regional champ.

Thank you for this.

So instead of creating the 10 Man WB 3rd Place 4, they should have created the 16 Man WB 3rd Place 4 (IHSA Pigtail).

[HawkeyeMG]

Thank you for this.

So instead of creating the 10 Man WB 3rd Place 4, they should have created the 16 Man WB 3rd Place 4 (IHSA Pigtail).

Just pointing out. lot of complaining considering its the first year.

1) everything got fixed.
2) everyone knew exactly who won individually almost instantly (made filling in names for my managers great because they could just look it up as we went along)
3) it will continue to get better

All things considered we are better than we were

[petersenkid2]

Just pointing out. lot of complaining considering its the first year.

1) everything got fixed.
2) everyone knew exactly who won individually almost instantly (made filling in names for my managers great because they could just look it up as we went along)
3) it will continue to get better

All things considered we are better than we were

No complaints here. I'm a big fan of Trackwrestling. I think Justin does a great job. I just wanted to understand what the real issue was, and for the first time, of all the times that Track gets blamed for network issues, user error, lack of training, too few printers, lenient weigh-in closure times, etc... it seems that this was an actual software issue. First one I've heard of since I ran my first tournament on Track in January of 2009.

[ctdad]

Just pointing out. lot of complaining considering its the first year.

1) everything got fixed.
2) everyone knew exactly who won individually almost instantly (made filling in names for my managers great because they could just look it up as we went along)
3) it will continue to get better

All things considered we are better than we were

Have to disagree that everything got fixed. Yes, some sharp eyes at Deerfield caught the problem there. But the reality is that incorrect scoring happened everywhere in the state with 9 or 10 man brackets, it just didn't come into play in the other cases. For the 2nd year in a row the team that finished 2nd per the way the IHSA wants regionals scored came very close to being declared regional champs (as was mentioned, last year it was the Rock Island Regional with Moline, Plainfield South and Yorkville). They may not be so lucky next time if the glitch isn't fixed.

[Jim Edmonds]

What if the IHSA just adds a requirement that any team within 20 points of the winning total is required to score-out their total and the champs total by hand before they leave?

At some point, having a validation on the scores from an outside source would seem to be the only way to ensure accuracy. And this would put the onus on the potentially-offended teams to ensure that they were not wronged.

PS: I personally think that a req like this would be overkill, but it would keep a wrongful champ from being crowned.