Montini

[PapaBearSLIM]

Like you said Twist, no excuses. Lets not discuss which team handed out the scholarships. Two teams wrestled and 1 won. One currently is an after thought in D1 while the other is a powerhouse in their division. The gap is bigger than you believe.
If the best kid at a 1A school beats an average at best kid from Sanburg is not reason to believe 1A is close to 3A.
Real talk.

[MR TWISTER]

A win is NEVER a given...

Of course. Big 10 is the best wrestling conference. Down year for WI and they still won.

They should of won...BUT by ONE to a team with NO scholarship athletes speaks volumes about wrestlers that are not in DI but at the top of the other divisions. That is all we are saying.

Bet they don't schedule them again either! I know at UNO most DI's would not dual us. The only one I know for sure that wanted to is Drew Pariano at Northwestern. Expect to see the Maryville vs Northwestern dual happen in the next two years. We could not match the schedules this year but both coaches want to. However a lot of DI coaches don't want to take that chance against the elite DII's or DIII so my hat is off to Wisconsin. Wartburg much like Augsburg, UNO-Maryville, St Cloud, Newberry, Minnesota State to name a few come with lineups that are full of former DI wrestlers or recuits that choose to go to lower levels usually for more money (DII) or a smaller learning environment / academic scholarship (DIII). Don't always be fooled by the designation meaning a kid can't compete. Ask Wisconsin or that kid from the All Star duals.

When the UNO program was dropped EVERY kid in our lineup and a lot of backups got calls from DI schools to the ratio of 3-1 over DII coaches. Most went on DI visits yet only ONE choose to wrestle DI. The rest either came to Maryville or retired.

Overall DI is the superior situation but not always against the lowerlever top teams. Too many schools have dropped their programs forcing a lot of kids to find alternatives. Everyone can't wrestle for Iowa.

[Carbondale]

They are DI (and in the Big 10, 11, 12) and in Illinois that is all you need to be considered superior to any other level.

There is Division I and then there is DI for real!

Of course. Big 10 is the best wrestling conference. Down year for WI and they still won.

[MR TWISTER]

Don't let them tell you anything else tilt...

Thus far this subject has been very polite and nice and informative(except for Mcbln,LOL). Cubs has offered a few excuses and tried to divert the subject to other high schools. But lets be honest and talk about the Pink Elephant in the room.

Both Twist and I have suggested based on our many years of observation that Montinis system is built for great hs success but post hs -not so much. I guarantee you the Montini powers would just assume this thread be stopped immediately and never allowed to be introduced again.

Montini doesnt want to have to explain or defend this debate because the bottom line is thats its bad for business.

What parent wants to plunk down 9k per year so there kid can wrestle on a state champ hs team but achieve little college success?

I think there is alot of parents that pay the high tuition because they believe their kid is not only going to be a hs state champ but then get a scholarship to college and they can justify the cost of the hs tuition and then have success in college.I know because I have talked to many Montini parents.

A poster asked Cubs to list all the state champs and then all the college wrestlers with success. We havent seen those two lists yet? IMO those lists would be a recruiting soar spot for parents with an expectation of success at the next level.

The Solution(s):

Easier said than done.

1.De-emphasize the take em down let em up style. Focus on all 3 disciplines equally.
2. Montini/Izzy is all about buying into their system. It gives them great hs success but prevents some kids from being exposed to other wrestling styles and philosophies. And we all know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks. So when kids get to college I believe they are not as open minded to embracing a totally new system. Its harder for them to adapt.

That was my plan when I enrolled my son at MC. Our family and our little wrestler were thinking college schollarship from the 6th grade on. I know for a fact a lot of other parents at a lot of private (and now public) schools think the same way. Kid state champs don't just show up at Montini, St Rita, Mt Carmel, Marmion, Marist, Providence, OPRF, Sandburg, N. Valley, Lockport, any of the Lincoln Ways & Plainfields, GBN, Minooka, Edwardsville, Granite City, etc. because of the h.s. wrestling experience. They are thinking the same way my family was, "our son is a pretty good wrestler and he can maybe parlay this into a college scholarship, especially if he can win state or make h.s. All American." Some times it works and some times it doesn't but you can believe a whole lot of families are trying. And if a team has the track record of a Montini, Providence, Mt. Carmel, etc. it is almost expected that they want lil Johnny to be at the next level...scholarship in hand too.

Anyone that tells you any different is full of horsecrap!

REAL TALK!

[tilt]

Why Montini doesn't want this subject

Thus far this subject has been very polite and nice and informative(except for Mcbln,LOL). Cubs has offered a few excuses and tried to divert the subject to other high schools. But lets be honest and talk about the Pink Elephant in the room.

Both Twist and I have suggested based on our many years of observation that Montinis system is built for great hs success but post hs -not so much. I guarantee you the Montini powers would just assume this thread be stopped immediately and never allowed to be introduced again.

Montini doesnt want to have to explain or defend this debate because the bottom line is thats its bad for business.

What parent wants to plunk down 9k per year so there kid can wrestle on a state champ hs team but achieve little college success?

I think there is alot of parents that pay the high tuition because they believe their kid is not only going to be a hs state champ but then get a scholarship to college and they can justify the cost of the hs tuition and then have success in college.I know because I have talked to many Montini parents.

A poster asked Cubs to list all the state champs and then all the college wrestlers with success. We havent seen those two lists yet? IMO those lists would be a recruiting soar spot for parents with an expectation of success at the next level.

The Solution(s):

Easier said than done.

1.De-emphasize the take em down let em up style. Focus on all 3 disciplines equally.
2. Montini/Izzy is all about buying into their system. It gives them great hs success but prevents some kids from being exposed to other wrestling styles and philosophies. And we all know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks. So when kids get to college I believe they are not as open minded to embracing a totally new system. Its harder for them to adapt. What I'm getting at is to lighten up on the Montini way is the only way stuff. Other hs coaches do this because they are NOT running 30 of their own camps in the off season. So their kids go everywhere and pick up different stuff.

[MR TWISTER]

No disclaimers allowed...DIII don't even have scholarships

Wisconsin is not in the top 30 this year. Down year.

They are DI (and in the Big 10, 11, 12) and in Illinois that is all you need to be considered superior to any other level.

There is Division I and then there is DI for real!

[Carbondale]

In support of Twister's argument - Look at the Wartburg vs. Wisconsin dual score from earlier this season. Wisconsin snuck away with a 17-16 victory. I know Wisconsin is no super power and that Wartburg isn't your average D3 team but.... they must be some real "athletes" at Wartburg to wrestle with a D1 school like that!

Wisconsin is not in the top 30 this year. Down year.

[MR TWISTER]

In support of Twister's argument - Look at the Wartburg vs. Wisconsin dual score from earlier this season. Wisconsin snuck away with a 17-16 victory. I know Wisconsin is no super power and that Wartburg isn't your average D3 team but.... they must be some real "athletes" at Wartburg to wrestle with a D1 school like that!

Exactely not to mention that "real athlete" at the All Star meet who beat up on the ranked DI kid, 184 I think. Heck he did not even win a DII title but then again UNO's national champ beat him to be on the top step. I am not even sure UNO could of beat Wartburg. They are real good so when I saw the Wisconsin score I was not surprised. Only the DI only level fans were surprised...LOL. I bet Gail was like "I told you so"

Bottom line is "everyone that can wrestle" is not in DI, BUT without a doubt DI is the top level of college wrestling. Just not the only level... with solid wrestlers.

[tilt]

the mantle

I am comparing ALL college wrestling. Did you not see where I said if you can't get off the bottom in DII then it will be extra hard in DI? Never compared DI to DII other than saying it is all college wrestling and it is hard at every level. That is a fact, especially when you say all you have to do to be successful in DII or DIII is be an athlete. If that is the case why has Illinois not had more national champs at those levels. We sure have a lot of kids wrestling at those levels who are "athletes" but NOT national champions? Why? Because THEY CAN NOT GET OFF THE BOTTOM in DII or DIII either just like the best of the best can't in DI. Those that make the adjustment like my son did but are also athletes get to stand at the top of the podium, REGUARDLESS OF DIVISION OF WRESTLING. all I was saying is as a state we suck on the bottom no matter where the kids matriculate to - DI, DII, DIII, NAIA or JUCO. That is a fact and until we admit it there will continue to be disappointment in March.

Are we saying that since Albert is struggling to get off the bottom at DI he would not struggle at DII or DIII? I don't think we know that. The gap is a lot smaller in talent between the levels simply because there are not as many wrestling schools. I am speaking about the top DII / DIII teams vs the mid to bottom DI. teams For instance last years DII national champs would of tore SIUE a new hole. Just because they have the title DI does not make them automatic against a DII power. I have seen this for myself. It was the general concencious from the media last year the UNO would of been ranked somewhere between 13-15 at the end of the year had they been in DI. Not bad since that was not even UNO's best team the last three years.

But back to the original points. Albert is more than just an athlete. I will stand by that even if he does not win a title. Does he need to get better at getting off the bottom. Of course. But to say Deneen was a better "wrestler" is crazy. That is like comparing a Lamborgini to a Ford Mustang.

Montini in my opinion has a style of wrestling that is built to win at the high school level. It is not fair to say because they win in hs they will win in college. Two different styles of wrestling. However with the mantel of best team in the state comes the expectations of success at the next level.

Yep. There is an expectation. Not a promise but an expectation.

[tilt]

classic diversion

people are talking about being all american (division 1) like they give it away for free. That is a very very select group of individuals to say the least. Benefiel and Goebel followed by the Beebes would be considered the best ever to wrestle here. Conor had a nice career as did Grimes, Chase became a pretty good mma fighter and Goebel is a starteer for Ohio state in football. When you are talking about post hs success I do somewhat agree. But lets look at the success of other programs. What program in Illinois sticks out with great success in college?

Cubs, we are a little bit too smart for this kind of diversion. As Twist already pointed out MountCarmel wrestlers have enjoyed much greater success. But I would also toss in Grant, Naperville North, Aurora West, Providence, and in a couple months GBN as also having more post hs wrestling success than Montini.

[Shoulda_Woulda_Coulda]

I am comparing ALL college wrestling. Did you not see where I said if you can't get off the bottom in DII then it will be extra hard in DI. Never compared DI to DII other than saying it is all college wrestling and it is hard at every level. That is a fact,especially when you say all you have to do to be successful in DII or DIII is be an athlete. If that is the case why has Illinois not had more national champs at those levels. We sure have a lot of kids wrestling at those levels who are "athletes"?

In support of Twister's argument - Look at the Wartburg vs. Wisconsin dual score from earlier this season. Wisconsin snuck away with a 17-16 victory. I know Wisconsin is no super power and that Wartburg isn't your average D3 team but.... they must be some real "athletes" at Wartburg to wrestle with a D1 school like that!

[MR TWISTER]

Great respoinse wrestlingnut

I am enjoying this open series of comments and want to add some of my thoughts and simple observations:
1. Albert White is great wrestler. He has had great success at every level he has been at except D1, yet.
2. White's college career hasn't gone as we hoped. His grades burned one year at Juco. He was hurt last year. This is his last shot.
3. Benefiel has hurt his chances by limiting his opportunities because of a number of issues, some of which are nobody's business.
4. Tannenbaum, Poeta, Fanthorpe, Precin all were good in all positions when they were upper classman. It took a little while to become good mat wrestlers, but they did. I'm sure there are plenty of great wrestlers who wrestled these guys and would say the same thing.
5. Twist, I think it is great you are so proud of your son, and you should be, but it is a lost cause trying to equate success at the D2 level with D1. Though there is no way to prove it, Poeta and Tannenbaum would have dominated D2 and won multiple titles. Precin would have won at least one if not two. Fanthorpe's wrestling career was hurt by injuries and he would be a question. I have heard the argument it is tougher to win a state title in some of the tougher states than a title in D2 or D3 because almost all of the top wrestlers in the state move on to D1 leaving D2 and D3 filled with the second and third tier state wrestlers. I am in no way saying your son was 2nd ot 3rd tier, but he did elect to go D2 and he won a title.

Finally, Twist I love your posts and I love your passion. I can feel the pride in your references to your son. That can never be bad, but comparing D2 to D1 sounds a little like a chiropractor comparing his education with an MD.

I am comparing ALL college wrestling. Did you not see where I said if you can't get off the bottom in DII then it will be extra hard in DI? Never compared DI to DII other than saying it is all college wrestling and it is hard at every level. That is a fact, especially when you say all you have to do to be successful in DII or DIII is be an athlete. If that is the case why has Illinois not had more national champs at those levels. We sure have a lot of kids wrestling at those levels who are "athletes" but NOT national champions? Why? Because THEY CAN NOT GET OFF THE BOTTOM in DII or DIII either just like the best of the best can't in DI. Those that make the adjustment like my son did but are also athletes get to stand at the top of the podium, REGUARDLESS OF DIVISION OF WRESTLING.

All I was saying is as a state we suck on the bottom no matter where the kids matriculate to - DI, DII, DIII, NAIA or JUCO. That is a fact and until we admit it there will continue to be disappointment in March.

Are we saying that since Albert is struggling to get off the bottom at DI he would not struggle at DII or DIII? I don't think we know that. The gap is a lot smaller in talent between the levels simply because there are not as many wrestling schools. I am speaking about the top DII / DIII teams vs the mid to bottom DI. teams For instance last years DII national champs would of tore SIUE a new hole. Just because they have the title DI does not make them automatic against a DII power. I have seen this for myself. It was the general concencious from the media last year the UNO would of been ranked somewhere between 13-15 at the end of the year had they been in DI. Not bad since that was not even UNO's best team the last three years.

But back to the original points. Albert is more than just an athlete. I will stand by that even if he does not win a title. Does he need to get better at getting off the bottom. Of course. But to say Deneen was a "WAY" better "wrestler" is crazy. That is like comparing a Lamborgini to a Ford Mustang.

Montini in my opinion has a style of wrestling that is built to win at the high school level. It is not fair to say because they win in hs they will win in college. Two different styles of wrestling. However with the mantel of best team in the state comes the expectations of success at the next level.

[MR TWISTER]

Thanks for posting. Yep same Albert White as in HS; nothing has changed. He struggles from the bottom ... always has ... always WILL!!

Twist you say White has the tools be a National champ..... there's no way he'll AA wrestling like this!!!

I agree....he has to make the same change my own son did...get your butt off the bottom!

[MR TWISTER]

people are talking about being all american (division 1) like they give it away for free. That is a very very select group of individuals to say the least. Benefiel and Goebel followed by the Beebes would be considered the best ever to wrestle here. Conor had a nice career as did Grimes, Chase became a pretty good mma fighter and Goebel is a starteer for Ohio state in football. When you are talking about post hs success I do somewhat agree. But lets look at the success of other programs. What program in Illinois sticks out with great success in college?

Mt. Carmel

[Shoulda_Woulda_Coulda]

This is actually a statement you could make about a lot of IL wrestlers from top programs, especially at the DI level. While you had Tannenbaum, Poeta, Kennedy, Precin, Fanthorpe to name a few all make it to AA status, none of them won a title, and several others, like White and Benefiel, never had real success. There are still a bunch out there; hope to see Tony Ramos, BJ Futrell, Nick and Chris Dardanes do well.

I know it's not Montini but I was playing football at Iowa Central C.C. during 1997-98 seasons and got to know Tony Davis who certainly excelled after high school. Here is his list of stats including 2 X JUCO National Champ at Iowa Central, and 1 NCAA D1 National Champ and 1 Runner-Up finish at NCAA's at UNI (Northern Iowa).

Hometown: Chicago Illinois
Currently Residing: Raleigh , North Carolina
High School: Mount Carmel
Weight: 149 lbs (College), 66 kg/145 lbs (International)
College: University of Northern Iowa 1999-2000
Junior College: Iowa Central Community College 97 & 98


Post Graduate/International: Freestyle
- 4th Place, 2003 Senior World Team Trials
- 5th place finish 2003 US Open
- 4th place finish 2004 US Open
- 3rd place finish 2004 Olympic Team Trials
- Member of the California Groove (Real Pro Wrestling)


Senior Year University of Northern Iowa/2000 Season record: (35 wins-1 loss)
- NCAA Champion
- 1st National Champion since 1963 for UNI
- West Regionals Champion/ Awarded Outstanding Wrestler
- Ryan Kaufman Champion/ Awarded Outstanding Wrestler


Junior Year/ University of Northern Iowa 1999

Season Record: (19 wins-4 losses)
- NCAA Runner-Up
- East Regional Champion/ Awarded Outstanding Wrestler


Sophomore yr. / Iowa Central Community College (98) Season Record: (32-0)
- Junior College National Champ.
- Iowa Central Junior College 1st 2x National Champion
- Iowa State Open Champion


Freshman yr. / Iowa Central Community College (97) Season Record: (33-5)
- Junior College National Champ


High School: Mount Carmel
- Illinois High School State Champ
- Illinois High School State Runner-up


Elementary/Middle School: Overall Record
(194 wins 5 losses)
(Illinois first 5x Kid State Champ ever) After winning his 5th Kid State Title, Tony was voted Illinois outstanding wrestler of the year.