Montini

[MR TWISTER]

No, I sat right there and watched the match; Benefiel was in complete control, scored two TDs and White had zero offense...all his points came when Mikey let him go.

White is not a great wrestler; he succeeded in high school because he was athletic...fast, powerful, but at the DI level all of these guys are. By this time in his DI career, I HOPE he can AA...and OSU is a great program for him to succeed at. Had he been a Juco or NCAA DIII/DII wrestler he would probably already have won multiple titles, but as I said before...at the DI level he doesn't have those athletic advantages...he has to actually wrestle. Case in point: Deneen was a very good wrestler; he wasn't particularly athletic...just a solid kid, hard worker, grinder, but...developed the skills. He had a momentary lapse of concentration that cost him a title...but as pure wrestling skills go he was WAY beyond White in his college career.

There are many times I agree with you Mac but not on this one. And it has nothing to do with Albert being a Twister or any of the other nonsensical things other people say when I defend him or others. It just does not add up for me. His name could be Barry White and I would not buy your argument on this one.

Last time I checked Albert was a JUCO National Champion from NIAC unless they had a different Albert White from St Rita /Harvey Twisters. And they are not handing out DII / DIII titles like they are candy on Halloween. You got to wrestle there too so to imply that all you got to be is an athlete is an insult to guys like Morgan and Rush. It is a tough sport at any level of college and they are all athletes. Those that are mat wrestlers just have a better chance at a title. Simple as that.

I don't think it is fair to condem his career when he is still active. If Albert wins a title all of you will be singing his praises and you know it so please don't deny it. BTW..when was the last time Illinois had a DI champion? Been awhile. Heck it had been awhile since there was a D II national champ until last year. At least ten years in the two scholarship divisions of the NCAA. Someone from Illinois has to figure out why. 1 champ, two divisions in approx 10 years. Not good. You got to figure we would luck up or something. Jeeze...

Oh and it is just silly to say Albert White is not a great wrestler and to just label him an athlete. No one was saying that while he was in high school so why say it now? There is a reason every college coach in the country wanted him. There is reason he won Fargo. He can wrestle. Being athletic helps but make no mistake about it, he can wrestle. Very few leave hs perfectly ready for college. Some get it sooner than later an vice versa. Most never figure it out so don't make Albert any different.

And Deneen was not a better wrestler than Albert White. I don't even think you could get Deneen to say that. Nice kid but to say his skills are WAY beyond Albert's is crazy. If he was he would of broke into Illinois lineup. It is not like Illinois had all of the studs that Oklahoma State has in his way. That just does not even make sense what you are saying.

And tilt is right....as a whole Illinois mat wrestling sucks. I am just glad my guy figured it out and did something about it before he became a causality. Maybe others will too.

[tilt]

some theories

Wow what an enlightening eye opening thread on how a hyped H.S. Team is just that.
Never would of thought of it.
I guess i just thought Montini = College Success...

Montini really doesnt hype itself very much these days. There was a time that the hyping was ridiculous. But I think the hyping really faded the last couple years and they are just as good as ever.

Despite what Cubs, whom I really do like his posts says, we all know Montini has produced by far the most champs and two timers and multiple placers yet as a team is whoafully behind in contributing to the State of Illinois' college wrestling success. So, heres some theories why;

1.As I alluded to earlier Montini which is so influenced by Martinez take down let em up wrestling can get away with the style in hs but not college.
2. Montini takes very average kids and make them champs. But once out of the Montini system the kids struggle.
3.Montini gets kids that have already been wrestling forever and are ahead of their hs competition but they get burnt out by college or the competition just catches up.
4.Montini gets alot of cross over athletes that choose to play their other sport in college.

The truth is probably a combination of these different factors. But whatever the reason(s) with every passing year that we celebrate several AAs and none are Montini alum this topic will linger.

[caped crusader]

just the facts

Tilt,
Remember "Montini" never hyped themselves. Wrestlers and coaches are the same as they always have been, its just that a few loud obnoxious posters have finally realized they should shut up. Some of your theories could be true but please remember the discussions we had last year concerning AA's. Many people mistakenly identify wrestlers as AA material when in fact they are not. Right now take the top 8 HS wrestlers in the entire country at each weight class and you have a select group. Then factor in that you are combining 4 or 5 years of those wrestlers together competing for the same AA spots, and it shrinks your chances even more. The fact is that many of our multiple state champs and placewinners simply are not in that elite catagory of wrestler, they were great in Illinois, but not on the national scene. In all truth, Illinois HS wrestling produces maybe 1 or 2 kids a year that fit that criteria, in Montini's case you have to be honest and admit that a small handful of kids ever fit in that catagory since Montini arrived as a wrestling powerhouse (last 12 years).

[215fan]

Montini really doesnt hype itself very much these days. There was a time that the hyping was ridiculous. But I think the hyping really faded the last couple years and they are just as good as ever.

Despite what Cubs, whom I really do like his posts says, we all know Montini has produced by far the most champs and two timers and multiple placers yet as a team is whoafully behind in contributing to the State of Illinois' college wrestling success. So, heres some theories why;

1.As I alluded to earlier Montini which is so influenced by Martinez take down let em up wrestling can get away with the style in hs but not college.
2. Montini takes very average kids and make them champs. But once out of the Montini system the kids struggle.
3.Montini gets kids that have already been wrestling forever and are ahead of their hs competition but they get burnt out by college or the competition just catches up.
4.Montini gets alot of cross over athletes that choose to play their other sport in college.

The truth is probably a combination of these different factors. But whatever the reason(s) with every passing year that we celebrate several AAs and none are Montini alum this topic will linger.

Tilt you kind of took the words out of my mouth, though lately I am trying to be a little more reserved in my direct observations and attempting to let others say what I think... not necessarily something I want to do but something that I feel I need to do in other areas of my life. It has carried over to places like this, and I should just speak my mind.
Montini has done a fabulous job building a program of which we've never really seen here before in Illinois. I remember when I was in HS Montini was 'average' at best. We wrestled them every year and usually beat them to be honest with you. My junior year I wrestled a kid from Montini that I knew (he recently transfered from my school to Montini) and he was their starter. He couldn't even beat our JV kid when he was on our team. That's not knock against Montini just more proof that they've put together something really special.
I suppose that college successful wrestlers from Montini is the next step in the evolution possibly. Izzy has taken over and quite possibly knows what we've all observed and will evaluate what they are doing at Montini and make changes in their style to try and get these kids (more) ready for the next level.
Success at the college level is really a fresh start kind of thing as I see it. There are kids in HS that do really well that just don't have the style to succeed in college. Twist hit the nail on the head talking about "distractions" in college that affect performance. I can imagine that staying focused in difficult. Benefiel is a guy that we all thought would be a multiple AA and he fell victim to distractions at NU (from what I heard via IM).
Getting long winded here and slightly off track.... my point is that Tilt listed 4 pretty legit reasons for the lack of college success, and while it's disappointing, we all should just enjoy what we get from these kids here in a state where wrestling is pretty damn awesome.

[wrestlingnut]

simple observations

There are many times I agree with you Mac but not on this one. And it has nothing to do with Albert being a Twister or any of the other nonsensical things other people say when I defend him or others. It just does not add up for me. His name could be Barry White and I would not buy your argument on this one.

Last time I checked Albert was a JUCO National Champion from NIAC unless they had a different Albert White from St Rita /Harvey Twisters. And they are not handing out DII / DIII titles like they are candy on Halloween. You got to wrestle there too so to imply that all you got to be is an athlete is an insult to guys like Morgan and Rush. It is a tough sport at any level of college and they are all athletes. Those that are mat wrestlers just have a better chance at a title. Simple as that.

I don't think it is fair to condem his career when he is still active. If Albert wins a title all of you will be singing his praises and you know it so please don't deny it. BTW..when was the last time Illinois had a DI champion? Been awhile. Heck it had been awhile since there was a D II national champ until last year. At least ten years in the two scholarship divisions of the NCAA. Someone from Illinois has to figure out why. 1 champ, two divisions in approx 10 years. Not good. You got to figure we would luck up or something. Jeeze...

Oh and it is just silly to say Albert White is not a great wrestler and to just label him an athlete. No one was saying that while he was in high school so why say it now? There is a reason every college coach in the country wanted him. There is reason he won Fargo. He can wrestle. Being athletic helps but make no mistake about it, he can wrestle. Very few leave hs perfectly ready for college. Some get it sooner than later an vice versa. Most never figure it out so don't make Albert any different.

And Deneen was not a better wrestler than Albert White. I don't even think you could get Deneen to say that. Nice kid but to say his skills are WAY beyond Albert's is crazy. If he was he would of broke into Illinois lineup. It is not like Illinois had all of the studs that Oklahoma State has in his way. That just does not even make sense what you are saying.

And tilt is right....as a whole Illinois mat wrestling sucks. I am just glad my guy figured it out and did something about it before he became a causality. Maybe others will too.

I am enjoying this open series of comments and want to add some of my thoughts and simple observations:
1. Albert White is great wrestler. He has had great success at every level he has been at except D1, yet.
2. White's college career hasn't gone as we hoped. His grades burned one year at Juco. He was hurt last year. This is his last shot.
3. Benefiel has hurt his chances by limiting his opportunities because of a number of issues, some of which are nobody's business.
4. Tannenbaum, Poeta, Fanthorpe, Precin all were good in all positions when they were upper classman. It took a little while to become good mat wrestlers, but they did. I'm sure there are plenty of great wrestlers who wrestled these guys and would say the same thing.
5. Twist, I think it is great you are so proud of your son, and you should be, but it is a lost cause trying to equate success at the D2 level with D1. Though there is no way to prove it, Poeta and Tannenbaum would have dominated D2 and won multiple titles. Precin would have won at least one if not two. Fanthorpe's wrestling career was hurt by injuries and he would be a question. I have heard the argument it is tougher to win a state title in some of the tougher states than a title in D2 or D3 because almost all of the top wrestlers in the state move on to D1 leaving D2 and D3 filled with the second and third tier state wrestlers. I am in no way saying your son was 2nd ot 3rd tier, but he did elect to go D2 and he won a title.

Finally, Twist I love your posts and I love your passion. I can feel the pride in your references to your son. That can never be bad, but comparing D2 to D1 sounds a little like a chiropractor comparing his education with an MD.

[Pirate Pride]

I think this match sums it up. We are not good enough on the mat. Period.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage...Matt-Lester-OU

Thanks for posting. Yep same Albert White as in HS; nothing has changed. He struggles from the bottom ... always has ... always WILL!!

Twist you say White has the tools be a National champ..... there's no way he'll AA wrestling like this!!!

[Cubs84]

agreed more college success yes but

Come on... tell me that with all the success that Montini has had that there shouldn't be more college success?.. Martin, Beebe(s), Coletti, Grimes?.. The list goes on for me. Just curious, can you make a short list of Montini placers/champs from the past 10 years that wrestled in college? Maybe that would answer my question.

people are talking about being all american (division 1) like they give it away for free. That is a very very select group of individuals to say the least. Benefiel and Goebel followed by the Beebes would be considered the best ever to wrestle here. Conor had a nice career as did Grimes, Chase became a pretty good mma fighter and Goebel is a starteer for Ohio state in football. When you are talking about post hs success I do somewhat agree. But lets look at the success of other programs. What program in Illinois sticks out with great success in college?

[Shoulda_Woulda_Coulda]

This is actually a statement you could make about a lot of IL wrestlers from top programs, especially at the DI level. While you had Tannenbaum, Poeta, Kennedy, Precin, Fanthorpe to name a few all make it to AA status, none of them won a title, and several others, like White and Benefiel, never had real success. There are still a bunch out there; hope to see Tony Ramos, BJ Futrell, Nick and Chris Dardanes do well.

I know it's not Montini but I was playing football at Iowa Central C.C. during 1997-98 seasons and got to know Tony Davis who certainly excelled after high school. Here is his list of stats including 2 X JUCO National Champ at Iowa Central, and 1 NCAA D1 National Champ and 1 Runner-Up finish at NCAA's at UNI (Northern Iowa).

Hometown: Chicago Illinois
Currently Residing: Raleigh , North Carolina
High School: Mount Carmel
Weight: 149 lbs (College), 66 kg/145 lbs (International)
College: University of Northern Iowa 1999-2000
Junior College: Iowa Central Community College 97 & 98


Post Graduate/International: Freestyle
- 4th Place, 2003 Senior World Team Trials
- 5th place finish 2003 US Open
- 4th place finish 2004 US Open
- 3rd place finish 2004 Olympic Team Trials
- Member of the California Groove (Real Pro Wrestling)


Senior Year University of Northern Iowa/2000 Season record: (35 wins-1 loss)
- NCAA Champion
- 1st National Champion since 1963 for UNI
- West Regionals Champion/ Awarded Outstanding Wrestler
- Ryan Kaufman Champion/ Awarded Outstanding Wrestler


Junior Year/ University of Northern Iowa 1999

Season Record: (19 wins-4 losses)
- NCAA Runner-Up
- East Regional Champion/ Awarded Outstanding Wrestler


Sophomore yr. / Iowa Central Community College (98) Season Record: (32-0)
- Junior College National Champ.
- Iowa Central Junior College 1st 2x National Champion
- Iowa State Open Champion


Freshman yr. / Iowa Central Community College (97) Season Record: (33-5)
- Junior College National Champ


High School: Mount Carmel
- Illinois High School State Champ
- Illinois High School State Runner-up


Elementary/Middle School: Overall Record
(194 wins 5 losses)
(Illinois first 5x Kid State Champ ever) After winning his 5th Kid State Title, Tony was voted Illinois outstanding wrestler of the year.

[MR TWISTER]

people are talking about being all american (division 1) like they give it away for free. That is a very very select group of individuals to say the least. Benefiel and Goebel followed by the Beebes would be considered the best ever to wrestle here. Conor had a nice career as did Grimes, Chase became a pretty good mma fighter and Goebel is a starteer for Ohio state in football. When you are talking about post hs success I do somewhat agree. But lets look at the success of other programs. What program in Illinois sticks out with great success in college?

Mt. Carmel

[MR TWISTER]

Thanks for posting. Yep same Albert White as in HS; nothing has changed. He struggles from the bottom ... always has ... always WILL!!

Twist you say White has the tools be a National champ..... there's no way he'll AA wrestling like this!!!

I agree....he has to make the same change my own son did...get your butt off the bottom!

[MR TWISTER]

Great respoinse wrestlingnut

I am enjoying this open series of comments and want to add some of my thoughts and simple observations:
1. Albert White is great wrestler. He has had great success at every level he has been at except D1, yet.
2. White's college career hasn't gone as we hoped. His grades burned one year at Juco. He was hurt last year. This is his last shot.
3. Benefiel has hurt his chances by limiting his opportunities because of a number of issues, some of which are nobody's business.
4. Tannenbaum, Poeta, Fanthorpe, Precin all were good in all positions when they were upper classman. It took a little while to become good mat wrestlers, but they did. I'm sure there are plenty of great wrestlers who wrestled these guys and would say the same thing.
5. Twist, I think it is great you are so proud of your son, and you should be, but it is a lost cause trying to equate success at the D2 level with D1. Though there is no way to prove it, Poeta and Tannenbaum would have dominated D2 and won multiple titles. Precin would have won at least one if not two. Fanthorpe's wrestling career was hurt by injuries and he would be a question. I have heard the argument it is tougher to win a state title in some of the tougher states than a title in D2 or D3 because almost all of the top wrestlers in the state move on to D1 leaving D2 and D3 filled with the second and third tier state wrestlers. I am in no way saying your son was 2nd ot 3rd tier, but he did elect to go D2 and he won a title.

Finally, Twist I love your posts and I love your passion. I can feel the pride in your references to your son. That can never be bad, but comparing D2 to D1 sounds a little like a chiropractor comparing his education with an MD.

I am comparing ALL college wrestling. Did you not see where I said if you can't get off the bottom in DII then it will be extra hard in DI? Never compared DI to DII other than saying it is all college wrestling and it is hard at every level. That is a fact, especially when you say all you have to do to be successful in DII or DIII is be an athlete. If that is the case why has Illinois not had more national champs at those levels. We sure have a lot of kids wrestling at those levels who are "athletes" but NOT national champions? Why? Because THEY CAN NOT GET OFF THE BOTTOM in DII or DIII either just like the best of the best can't in DI. Those that make the adjustment like my son did but are also athletes get to stand at the top of the podium, REGUARDLESS OF DIVISION OF WRESTLING.

All I was saying is as a state we suck on the bottom no matter where the kids matriculate to - DI, DII, DIII, NAIA or JUCO. That is a fact and until we admit it there will continue to be disappointment in March.

Are we saying that since Albert is struggling to get off the bottom at DI he would not struggle at DII or DIII? I don't think we know that. The gap is a lot smaller in talent between the levels simply because there are not as many wrestling schools. I am speaking about the top DII / DIII teams vs the mid to bottom DI. teams For instance last years DII national champs would of tore SIUE a new hole. Just because they have the title DI does not make them automatic against a DII power. I have seen this for myself. It was the general concencious from the media last year the UNO would of been ranked somewhere between 13-15 at the end of the year had they been in DI. Not bad since that was not even UNO's best team the last three years.

But back to the original points. Albert is more than just an athlete. I will stand by that even if he does not win a title. Does he need to get better at getting off the bottom. Of course. But to say Deneen was a "WAY" better "wrestler" is crazy. That is like comparing a Lamborgini to a Ford Mustang.

Montini in my opinion has a style of wrestling that is built to win at the high school level. It is not fair to say because they win in hs they will win in college. Two different styles of wrestling. However with the mantel of best team in the state comes the expectations of success at the next level.

[Shoulda_Woulda_Coulda]

I am comparing ALL college wrestling. Did you not see where I said if you can't get off the bottom in DII then it will be extra hard in DI. Never compared DI to DII other than saying it is all college wrestling and it is hard at every level. That is a fact,especially when you say all you have to do to be successful in DII or DIII is be an athlete. If that is the case why has Illinois not had more national champs at those levels. We sure have a lot of kids wrestling at those levels who are "athletes"?

In support of Twister's argument - Look at the Wartburg vs. Wisconsin dual score from earlier this season. Wisconsin snuck away with a 17-16 victory. I know Wisconsin is no super power and that Wartburg isn't your average D3 team but.... they must be some real "athletes" at Wartburg to wrestle with a D1 school like that!

[tilt]

classic diversion

people are talking about being all american (division 1) like they give it away for free. That is a very very select group of individuals to say the least. Benefiel and Goebel followed by the Beebes would be considered the best ever to wrestle here. Conor had a nice career as did Grimes, Chase became a pretty good mma fighter and Goebel is a starteer for Ohio state in football. When you are talking about post hs success I do somewhat agree. But lets look at the success of other programs. What program in Illinois sticks out with great success in college?

Cubs, we are a little bit too smart for this kind of diversion. As Twist already pointed out MountCarmel wrestlers have enjoyed much greater success. But I would also toss in Grant, Naperville North, Aurora West, Providence, and in a couple months GBN as also having more post hs wrestling success than Montini.

[tilt]

the mantle

I am comparing ALL college wrestling. Did you not see where I said if you can't get off the bottom in DII then it will be extra hard in DI? Never compared DI to DII other than saying it is all college wrestling and it is hard at every level. That is a fact, especially when you say all you have to do to be successful in DII or DIII is be an athlete. If that is the case why has Illinois not had more national champs at those levels. We sure have a lot of kids wrestling at those levels who are "athletes" but NOT national champions? Why? Because THEY CAN NOT GET OFF THE BOTTOM in DII or DIII either just like the best of the best can't in DI. Those that make the adjustment like my son did but are also athletes get to stand at the top of the podium, REGUARDLESS OF DIVISION OF WRESTLING. all I was saying is as a state we suck on the bottom no matter where the kids matriculate to - DI, DII, DIII, NAIA or JUCO. That is a fact and until we admit it there will continue to be disappointment in March.

Are we saying that since Albert is struggling to get off the bottom at DI he would not struggle at DII or DIII? I don't think we know that. The gap is a lot smaller in talent between the levels simply because there are not as many wrestling schools. I am speaking about the top DII / DIII teams vs the mid to bottom DI. teams For instance last years DII national champs would of tore SIUE a new hole. Just because they have the title DI does not make them automatic against a DII power. I have seen this for myself. It was the general concencious from the media last year the UNO would of been ranked somewhere between 13-15 at the end of the year had they been in DI. Not bad since that was not even UNO's best team the last three years.

But back to the original points. Albert is more than just an athlete. I will stand by that even if he does not win a title. Does he need to get better at getting off the bottom. Of course. But to say Deneen was a better "wrestler" is crazy. That is like comparing a Lamborgini to a Ford Mustang.

Montini in my opinion has a style of wrestling that is built to win at the high school level. It is not fair to say because they win in hs they will win in college. Two different styles of wrestling. However with the mantel of best team in the state comes the expectations of success at the next level.

Yep. There is an expectation. Not a promise but an expectation.

[MR TWISTER]

In support of Twister's argument - Look at the Wartburg vs. Wisconsin dual score from earlier this season. Wisconsin snuck away with a 17-16 victory. I know Wisconsin is no super power and that Wartburg isn't your average D3 team but.... they must be some real "athletes" at Wartburg to wrestle with a D1 school like that!

Exactely not to mention that "real athlete" at the All Star meet who beat up on the ranked DI kid, 184 I think. Heck he did not even win a DII title but then again UNO's national champ beat him to be on the top step. I am not even sure UNO could of beat Wartburg. They are real good so when I saw the Wisconsin score I was not surprised. Only the DI only level fans were surprised...LOL. I bet Gail was like "I told you so"

Bottom line is "everyone that can wrestle" is not in DI, BUT without a doubt DI is the top level of college wrestling. Just not the only level... with solid wrestlers.