Montini

[Carbondale]

In support of Twister's argument - Look at the Wartburg vs. Wisconsin dual score from earlier this season. Wisconsin snuck away with a 17-16 victory. I know Wisconsin is no super power and that Wartburg isn't your average D3 team but.... they must be some real "athletes" at Wartburg to wrestle with a D1 school like that!

Wisconsin is not in the top 30 this year. Down year.

[MR TWISTER]

No disclaimers allowed...DIII don't even have scholarships

Wisconsin is not in the top 30 this year. Down year.

They are DI (and in the Big 10, 11, 12) and in Illinois that is all you need to be considered superior to any other level.

There is Division I and then there is DI for real!

[tilt]

Why Montini doesn't want this subject

Thus far this subject has been very polite and nice and informative(except for Mcbln,LOL). Cubs has offered a few excuses and tried to divert the subject to other high schools. But lets be honest and talk about the Pink Elephant in the room.

Both Twist and I have suggested based on our many years of observation that Montinis system is built for great hs success but post hs -not so much. I guarantee you the Montini powers would just assume this thread be stopped immediately and never allowed to be introduced again.

Montini doesnt want to have to explain or defend this debate because the bottom line is thats its bad for business.

What parent wants to plunk down 9k per year so there kid can wrestle on a state champ hs team but achieve little college success?

I think there is alot of parents that pay the high tuition because they believe their kid is not only going to be a hs state champ but then get a scholarship to college and they can justify the cost of the hs tuition and then have success in college.I know because I have talked to many Montini parents.

A poster asked Cubs to list all the state champs and then all the college wrestlers with success. We havent seen those two lists yet? IMO those lists would be a recruiting soar spot for parents with an expectation of success at the next level.

The Solution(s):

Easier said than done.

1.De-emphasize the take em down let em up style. Focus on all 3 disciplines equally.
2. Montini/Izzy is all about buying into their system. It gives them great hs success but prevents some kids from being exposed to other wrestling styles and philosophies. And we all know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks. So when kids get to college I believe they are not as open minded to embracing a totally new system. Its harder for them to adapt. What I'm getting at is to lighten up on the Montini way is the only way stuff. Other hs coaches do this because they are NOT running 30 of their own camps in the off season. So their kids go everywhere and pick up different stuff.

[MR TWISTER]

Don't let them tell you anything else tilt...

Thus far this subject has been very polite and nice and informative(except for Mcbln,LOL). Cubs has offered a few excuses and tried to divert the subject to other high schools. But lets be honest and talk about the Pink Elephant in the room.

Both Twist and I have suggested based on our many years of observation that Montinis system is built for great hs success but post hs -not so much. I guarantee you the Montini powers would just assume this thread be stopped immediately and never allowed to be introduced again.

Montini doesnt want to have to explain or defend this debate because the bottom line is thats its bad for business.

What parent wants to plunk down 9k per year so there kid can wrestle on a state champ hs team but achieve little college success?

I think there is alot of parents that pay the high tuition because they believe their kid is not only going to be a hs state champ but then get a scholarship to college and they can justify the cost of the hs tuition and then have success in college.I know because I have talked to many Montini parents.

A poster asked Cubs to list all the state champs and then all the college wrestlers with success. We havent seen those two lists yet? IMO those lists would be a recruiting soar spot for parents with an expectation of success at the next level.

The Solution(s):

Easier said than done.

1.De-emphasize the take em down let em up style. Focus on all 3 disciplines equally.
2. Montini/Izzy is all about buying into their system. It gives them great hs success but prevents some kids from being exposed to other wrestling styles and philosophies. And we all know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks. So when kids get to college I believe they are not as open minded to embracing a totally new system. Its harder for them to adapt.

That was my plan when I enrolled my son at MC. Our family and our little wrestler were thinking college schollarship from the 6th grade on. I know for a fact a lot of other parents at a lot of private (and now public) schools think the same way. Kid state champs don't just show up at Montini, St Rita, Mt Carmel, Marmion, Marist, Providence, OPRF, Sandburg, N. Valley, Lockport, any of the Lincoln Ways & Plainfields, GBN, Minooka, Edwardsville, Granite City, etc. because of the h.s. wrestling experience. They are thinking the same way my family was, "our son is a pretty good wrestler and he can maybe parlay this into a college scholarship, especially if he can win state or make h.s. All American." Some times it works and some times it doesn't but you can believe a whole lot of families are trying. And if a team has the track record of a Montini, Providence, Mt. Carmel, etc. it is almost expected that they want lil Johnny to be at the next level...scholarship in hand too.

Anyone that tells you any different is full of horsecrap!

REAL TALK!

[Carbondale]

They are DI (and in the Big 10, 11, 12) and in Illinois that is all you need to be considered superior to any other level.

There is Division I and then there is DI for real!

Of course. Big 10 is the best wrestling conference. Down year for WI and they still won.

[MR TWISTER]

A win is NEVER a given...

Of course. Big 10 is the best wrestling conference. Down year for WI and they still won.

They should of won...BUT by ONE to a team with NO scholarship athletes speaks volumes about wrestlers that are not in DI but at the top of the other divisions. That is all we are saying.

Bet they don't schedule them again either! I know at UNO most DI's would not dual us. The only one I know for sure that wanted to is Drew Pariano at Northwestern. Expect to see the Maryville vs Northwestern dual happen in the next two years. We could not match the schedules this year but both coaches want to. However a lot of DI coaches don't want to take that chance against the elite DII's or DIII so my hat is off to Wisconsin. Wartburg much like Augsburg, UNO-Maryville, St Cloud, Newberry, Minnesota State to name a few come with lineups that are full of former DI wrestlers or recuits that choose to go to lower levels usually for more money (DII) or a smaller learning environment / academic scholarship (DIII). Don't always be fooled by the designation meaning a kid can't compete. Ask Wisconsin or that kid from the All Star duals.

When the UNO program was dropped EVERY kid in our lineup and a lot of backups got calls from DI schools to the ratio of 3-1 over DII coaches. Most went on DI visits yet only ONE choose to wrestle DI. The rest either came to Maryville or retired.

Overall DI is the superior situation but not always against the lowerlever top teams. Too many schools have dropped their programs forcing a lot of kids to find alternatives. Everyone can't wrestle for Iowa.

[PapaBearSLIM]

Like you said Twist, no excuses. Lets not discuss which team handed out the scholarships. Two teams wrestled and 1 won. One currently is an after thought in D1 while the other is a powerhouse in their division. The gap is bigger than you believe.
If the best kid at a 1A school beats an average at best kid from Sanburg is not reason to believe 1A is close to 3A.
Real talk.

[MR TWISTER]

Like you said Twist, no excuses. Lets not discuss which team handed out the scholarships. Two teams wrestled and 1 won. One currently is an after thought in D1 while the other is a powerhouse in their division. The gap is bigger than you believe.
If the best kid at a 1A school beats an average at best kid from Sanburg is not reason to believe 1A is close to 3A.
Real talk.

Not saying that at all. As I said they should win. Better coaches, facilities and conference. ONE point is cutting it close wouldn't you say.? Just pointing out that a kid or team from another divison can beat the top divison kid. For instance the best wrestler in Illinois is thought by many to be in AA. so no one should be surprised if he beats anyone in AAA. Stop acting like it is impossible for a DII / DIII team or kid can't to against DI like that level is on the moon and everyone else is on Earth.

I can't find an average kid in the Sandburg lineup. Can you please point him out to me?

Why is the best team in Illinois not from AAA? Shouldn't AAA be superior to all divisions? Just wondering.

BTW the 2011 NCAA Coach of the Year was not from a DI school.

But Papa Bear you position was well formulated.

That is all... REAL TALK!

On another note I hear you son is a beast. Can you pmail me his schedule and particulars. I want to catch his show before the season is over.

[tilt]

agreed

That was my plan when I enrolled my son at MC. Our family and our little wrestler were thinking college schollarship from the 6th grade on. I know for a fact a lot of other parents at a lot of private (and now public) schools think the same way. Kid state champs don't just show up at Montini, St Rita, Mt Carmel, Marmion, Marist, Providence, OPRF, Sandburg, N. Valley, Lockport, any of the Lincoln Ways & Plainfields, GBN, Minooka, Edwardsville, Granite City, etc. because of the h.s. wrestling experience. They are thinking the same way my family was, "our son is a pretty good wrestler and he can maybe parlay this into a college scholarship, especially if he can win state or make h.s. All American." Some times it works and some times it doesn't but you can believe a whole lot of families are trying. And if a team has the track record of a Montini, Providence, Mt. Carmel, etc. it is almost expected that they want lil Johnny to be at the next level...scholarship in hand too.

Anyone that tells you any different is full of horsecrap!

REAL TALK!

And I certainly dont mean to imply just parents that send their kids to privates have this expectation. There has been plenty of examples of parents moving families so lil Johnnie can be at a public powerhouse.

The point is that many parents do have an expectation that when they send their kid to Montini to wrestle that they will not only be a star in hs but will also have success in college.

If Montini defines college wrestling success as qualifying for the NCAA tournament or winning 1 Midlands title then they can present those results to prospective parents/wrestlers with the message - mission accomplished.

[mckbln]

Last time I checked Albert was a JUCO National Champion from NIAC unless they had a different Albert White from St Rita /Harvey Twisters.

Thanks...I guess you kind of made my point.

[MR TWISTER]

Last time I checked Albert was a JUCO National Champion from NIAC unless they had a different Albert White from St Rita /Harvey Twisters.

Thanks...I guess you kind of made my point.

How? He redshirted the next year and was injured the following year. I guess I missed the point.

[Jaguar]

I am late coming to this thread (and bored, sitting in the Dallas/Ft. Worth airport waiting for an 8:26 flight), but I have a few thoughts.

As for Montini, in my opinion, over the years they have had one focus, and that was to win high school state championships, and they did that well. They were successful in meeting their goals. The game in high school in Illinois is take 'em down; let 'em up; and take 'em down again. It has worked for years. It just doesn't work in college. Can you really fault them for lack of success in college? I don't recall them ever boasting that they would produce the best college wrestlers.

Albert White a great wrestler, but all the top guys in DI are great wrestlers. I think that Albert's lack of similar success in college can be attributed not only to the fact that he is not as developed in mat wrestling skills as on his feet, but also due to the fact that he physically matured early. Guys that mature early don't have to rely on wrestling skills as much as guys who don't. I know for a fact that Albert was a student of wrestling in high school. It isn't that he didn't learn good wrestling skills; it is that he didn't have to rely on them to the same extent as a person who was less developed physically. I put Joe Gomez into the same category. In college, the physical maturity evens out. Matt Lester, for instance, was a little guy in high school; while Albert wrestles close to the same weight now that he wrestled in highs school.

Tony Ramos is an example of a guy who made the adjustments. I remember commenting publicly to question whether he would be a good college wrestler around his sophomore year in high school because of the take down let 'em up style of wrestling and lack of mat wrestling skills. Over the next years I noticed that he became a better mat wrestler. I doubt it had anything to do with my comment; he just made the adjustment, no doubt with the help of his coaches. I think he always looked past high school to college and knew that he had to develop those mat wrestling skills to succeed at the next level. Most kids don't look ahead and don't make the adjustment. By the time they get to college, it is too late.

[throw45]

I don't think anyone took your question the wrong way. College wrestling as you know is a different mindset. You have to learn a whole new style of wrestling ; i.e. getting off the bottom. Then there is the physical part, it is just brutal out there on the college mat. Plus the season and commitment is much longer and for real.

I would not put it on Montini alone. Pretty much every one that is ranked in any level of college wrestling is talented. Because there are a lot fewer teams than in the past because of all of the programs closing, the talent pool is a lot tighter. Only the strong survive. I would venture to bet a kid that has several hs bracket boards or team titles is not as hungry as the kid that was close but did not get to the top. Now this is not always the case but it has a lot to do with it.

None of us know the specific reason why Montini does not have 10 champs and maybe 15 AA's over the last few years. But some good reasons may of been already outlined in these post.

10 Champs? 15 AA's? What did the Williams brothers kids have grand children and move in Montini school district?
Darn Twist , don't know about D2 and for that matter don't know many names besides James Nicholson and Mario, but it's darn hard to win a "National Championship". I said the same thing. It is hard to win a National title. Before you jump on me, I like Montini. Remember who they called on for the coaching change announcement. I consider Izzy a personal friend. He has been to my house and vice versa. Still I agree with tilt that there is not a lot of college AA's for whatever the reason out of the best program in the Illinois. I think it is because they are built to win at the hs level.

You said Mt. Carmel being the best h.s. for college wrestling representives, but I'll take Grant H.S. in the last 10 years. I NEVER said that. He asked me to name a high school that was successful at producing college level wrestlers and I named MC. Tilt named Grant among others and I agreed with him. If I did not agree I would of said so.Dennis Kennedy, Barczyk, Montemayer, Dace (JC All American...can't have the best of all worlds Twist) and Deneen.By the way Twist he was a starter for a year and a half. Before you bring up Mario beating John in h.s. That was in high school.No need for me to bring it up because the only reason he was mentioned was Mckbln said he was a better wrestler than ALBERT WHITE. I replied that I don't think he was. Nice kid but I will take my chances with Albert. Never mentioned Mario and Deneen in the same sentence as it was not relevant to the discussion. You brought it up, not me,

We have talked in the past, and you go sideways, but there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between D1 and D2. when you qualify for the D1 tourney you still have 32 guys to battle. (Damn pig-tails.) Agreed. Never said it was not. In fact the degree of difficulty was not part of the discussion. We were talking about getting off the bottom on ALL LEVELS of college wrestling. Don't just see my name and assume. I love DI wrestling, in fact love all levels of wrestling. Got my press credentials for St. Louis in as we speak.

Twist Explain the D2 kid whoopin on Blanton and what you know about how it went down, but I'll give ya a hint...when you go from your scheduled opponent injury defaulting and thinking your days done to having to wrestle in 1 hour, it might be hard to flip the switch.One of my all time favorite people and wrestlers that Blanton kid is. But as a previous poster said, "No excuses please. Someone won and lost." You got to know that anytime a big name DI kid loses to a big name DII kid those of us that are DII fans are gonna point it out to the "DI is the only level" crowd. Don't like that then don't lose. I am pretty sure that loss will make Blanton better. He is probably like you and don't know anyone in DIiI but this James Nicholson ( who is he anyway) and Mario and got blindsided. Next time you guys wrestle DII kids hit me up and I will let you know who to watch out for. Midlands are around the corner you know. :-)Hey C45. Sure took you long enough. As you can tell my responses are in Twister/UNO/Maverick RED. Don't read to much into this stuff. I am just stirring the pot for the sake of website interest. I will go back underground in a minute. Just did not want you guys to think I was dead because I had not been posting and just moderating. Anywho say Hi to the family and see ya in St Louis. Got my Press Credentials ready to go...:-))))

[ionel]

Must have missed something and didn't have time to read the entire thread, but when did Montini get bumped up the collegiate level. I'm assuming it's due to the recruiting issues. Are they NAIA, JC, DIII or DII? It can't be DI, and the mods wouldn't let this stay on the College board if it weren't true.

[PapaBearSLIM]

Not saying that at all. As I said they should win. Better coaches, facilities and conference. ONE point is cutting it close wouldn't you say.? Just pointing out that a kid or team from another divison can beat the top divison kid. For instance the best wrestler in Illinois is thought by many to be in AA. so no one should be surprised if he beats anyone in AAA. Stop acting like it is impossible for a DII / DIII team or kid can't to against DI like that level is on the moon and everyone else is on Earth.

I can't find an average kid in the Sandburg lineup. Can you please point him out to me?

Why is the best team in Illinois not from AAA? Shouldn't AAA be superior to all divisions? Just wondering.

BTW the 2011 NCAA Coach of the Year was not from a DI school.

But Papa Bear you position was well formulated.

That is all... REAL TALK!

On another note I hear you son is a beast. Can you pmail me his schedule and particulars. I want to catch his show before the season is over.

Just like all of the top teams, Sandburg has some average kids in their lineup. I'm not pointing them out for you.

Not everybody will agree with you about which class has Illinois' best team. January 25, 2012

Who got named coach of the year is irrelevant.

I know not everybody takes this position, but since my kid is not part of this topic I won't talk about him in this thread.